Thread: Arc rod shelf life.

Originally Posted by nearnexus

Just babies.

I've got two full packs of rods left over from when they built the Mannum to Adelaide pipeline in the early 1950s.

These are the last two packets from a lot we got from a deceased estate of a friend who worked for E&WS from WW2 till retirement on all those major works. He was based at the Islington workshops.

Do they weld OK? Absolutely. Age doesn't hurt them - just dry them if necessary. The old rods fume pretty badly, and it makes you wonder what they used in the flux back then, but they weld OK.

Provided the packs haven't been opened they stay dry, as they came sealed in a type of heavy duty tar/bituminised paper wrapping.

Anyone care to outdo that? I don't think Noah used a stick welder on the ark.

Cheers

Rob

I bought a pilot ark ( Art Deco) not exposed lever style $50.
But I had to take the 100 kgs of rods with it.
They were in sealed metal containers that had to be cut open.
Never tried em donated them with my older pilot to the maritime museum.
The chief welder a spry 80 or so said thank god we now have decent arc again.
H

Originally Posted by shedhappens

You have to ask yourself this question though, how good is the weld from those rods ?
It might look ok.........but

Mine were very good. Surprised myself at actually how good, as I have not done any welding for quite a while.

Nev.

There is a couple of factors at play here, the first one is the fact that many brands of old rods
are bastards of things to weld with even after they have been dried, a competent welder can normally
compensate and do a reasonable weld, though more likely he would chuck them and use decent rods.
The bloke who does the odd bit of welding has old rods because he only does the odd bit of welding,
I'm sure we have all seen those fantastic (cockyshit) welds from time to time.

The second thing I want to mention is hydrogen entitlement caused by damp rods, if there is
the need to weld something such as a floor beam, a draw bar on a trailer, your kids swing set ect then
the good looking weld could/would be a wolf in sheep's clothing

My advise is, if you are a amateur welder use good or new rods, your welding will improve faster and you will have less trouble with slag intrusion.

Lincoln Electric produced airtight tin cans of electrodes.They were about 125mm square and held about 10 kgs of rod from memory.

Air and moisture are the enemies of fluxed electrodes.Prevent those elements from reaching the electrode and they will will deposit a good bead 50 years after manufacture.


Grahame

Originally Posted by shedhappens

There is a couple of factors at play here, the first one is the fact that many brands of old rods
are bastards of things to weld with even after they have been dried, a competent welder can normally
compensate and do a reasonable weld, though more likely he would chuck them and use decent rods.

The second thing I want to mention is hydrogen entitlement caused by damp rods, if there is
the need to weld something such as a floor beam, a draw bar on a trailer, your kids swing set ect then
the good looking weld could/would be a wolf in sheep's clothing

I would like to correct a misconception about brittle fracture of steel and moisture in electrodes ,particularly those used in a Home diy environment.

What is Hydrogen embrittlement

“Hydrogen embrittlement is the process by which various metals, most importantly high-strength steel, become brittle and fracture following exposure to hydrogen. “

So sayeth the initial paragraph in Wiki. Note that it says high strength steel.

Looking at that from the point of view of a home DIY welder, some points need to be looked at and explained.

High strength steel
High strength steel is not something we are likely to encounter unless we are building something that is highly stressed in its daily operation.

As an example, crane lift booms and some pressure vessels and pressure vessel piping are the type of high strength such as being referred to in the context of hydrogen embrittlement.

A house beam is only Grd 350 carbon steel, and I would not consider it unless it is holding up a sky scraper.

Types of electrodes

When dealing with steel (susceptible to Hydrogen embrittlement) that is to be welded, welding is NOT carried out with mild steel home variety electrodes-ie weld craft- but rather hydrogen controlled electrodes. Low hydrogen electrodes aka LH electrodes are the electrode type which require moisture control by storing the opened packs in a temperature oven.. The molten flux can also serve to absorb the hydrogen into it.

Be aware that,other conditions can induce hydrogen into your welds.

Other causes of failure

Grease ,paint , and dirt if present on the parent plate cam be welded over and give the same result as moisture- hydrogen infused into the weld. Certainly there can be hydrogen caused root bead cracking but there's not likely to be the level of load to cause catastrophic failure.

How to avoid failures
Failures of home welded equipment be it a trailer or a kids swing are far more likely to be due to causes of poor workmanship/technique / poor material choice and straight out poor welding where a simple visual inspection will usually reveal any defects that will be cause for rejection. We are talking undercut ,slag inclusion, craters, and crater cracks.

Hopefully that improves the understanding of hydrogen embrittlement.

Cheers

Grahame

Originally Posted by Grahame Collins

Hopefully that improves the understanding of hydrogen embrittlement.

Cheers

Grahame

excellent post Grahame, and of course plating can induce hydrogen embrittlement as well.

Poor quality welds as you posted are by far the biggest cause of weld failure and least likley accepted fault


the OP talks of satin craft, were they the blue rods? I always found them to be easy to start but produced the poorest welds, the grey ( weldcrft?) we're what all be welders I worked with would use but I found them hard to start. Certainly easy with DC.

achjimmy,

To answer your question re Satincraft:

Satin craft are an electrode type within the mild steel group. They are easy to start and present a smooth rippled bead when chipped.

They are a rutile based 6013 GP –General purposed electrode. Sure they are a good all round electrode and probably the one most casual welders should keep.

As your welding experience expands, there are other electrode types and brands you can try.

To select satincraft for all steel applications because they give a nice appearance is like using the one type of screwdriver for every different type of screw head..

Maybe you can undo the screws if you try hard enough but the correct fitting screwdriver does the job better faster and easier.

So it goes with electrodes and their specific applications.


Satincraft can’t cope with the arc length longer than usually held and will suffer from slag inclusion. I believe it is to do with a compromise in the flux chemical make up. The goodies used to promote the smooth finish are probably detrimental to keeping the arc stable at extended arc length.Also in keeping with the Op topic Satincraft seem to suck up moisture if left in humid conditions for a long time.Definitely an electrode that needs to be resealed back up in a moisture free container.
They are not unique in their charecteristics, there are many other brands in the same class that equal them. Lincoln easy arc 6013,AWI Austarc 13S,Kobe RB -26 Satin craft are an electrode type within the mild steel group. They are easy to start and present a smooth rippled bead when chipped.

They are a rutile based 6013 GP –General purposed electrode. Sure they are a good all round electrode and probably the one most casual welders should keep.

As your welding experience expands, there are other electrode types and brands you can try.

To select satincraft for all steel applications because they give a nice appearance is like using the one type of screwdriver for every different type of screw head..

Maybe you can undo the screws if you try hard enough but the correct fitting screwdriver does the job better faster and easier.

So it goes with electrodes and their specific applications.


Satincraft can’t cope with the arc length longer than usually held and will suffer from slag inclusion. I believe it is to do with a compromise in the flux chemical make up. The goodies used to promote the smooth finish are probably detrimental to keeping the arc stable at extended arc length.



About starting weldcraft, or any electrode for that matter.

Try using a strike plate arcing the electrode on it, to get a stable arc and clean end and before the heat dies out of the electrode end rapidly move it to the location to be welded and strike it. If hot enough, ie not too far off red heat,the electrode should arc.

Grahame

Originally Posted by achjimmy

excellent post Grahame, and of course plating can induce hydrogen embrittlement as well.


the OP talks of satin craft, were they the blue rods? I always found them to be easy to start but produced the poorest welds, the grey ( weldcrft?) we're what all be welders I worked with would use but I found them hard to start. Certainly easy with DC.

Yes good post Grahame. Satincraft are very intolerant of incorrect arc length, but used correctly give a nice clean weld.

Probably the best brand of rod I've used are Magna. Unfortunately they are no longer available in SA and postage from the Eastern states is a killer.

As for low hydrogen rods, yes, these are absolutely necessary for welding jobs where hydrogen embrittlement is an issue - such as stub axles.

I tried a pack of Chinese GP welding rods a few years back and hated them. Then one day I was running low on rods, dragged them out and found that they actually welded beautifully if you really wound the amps up - pooled absolutely great with excellent penetration. Hard weld.

So there ya go. Not as crappy as I first thought.

Cheers

Rob

Thanks guys, interesting. Yes I have used a strike plate or more correctly it was usually my earth clamp!

stick welding never cam naturally to me. I found as I got better gear, used the correct lens to see what I was doing and protection I welded better.

my favorite welder was the old vertical DC Lincoln's that looked like an anorexic R2D2. Although my ideal arc 300/300 tig also made a great arc welder too just not very mobile.

Originally Posted by shedhappens

Bloody hell you blokes are tight, seems to me that some have hoarders syndrome.
Chuck out the old crap and buy new rods coz if they are that old you aint using them anyway.
I often had to weld in the rain, that was fun, everything you touched would give you a tingle,
there was no RCD's to muck you around then.
When the rod's got wet you would just hold it on the job till it smoked up a bit and then off you'd
go, I still do that if I'm somewhere and only crappy old rods are on hand.
You have to ask yourself this question though, how good is the weld from those rods ?
It might look ok.........but

Just checked my old stock of CIG 2.5mm dia Arcraft rods.
Although they have a white powdery coating, the flux coating is very brittle & flaking off on many of them.
During the infrequent time that I have used them its been difficult to stike & maintain a stable arc, compared to when they were new.
So they are going out, heading to the store now to get some newies.
Thanks again.
regards
Bruce

[QUOTE=KBs PensNmore;1657724]I have used wet rods for cutting when I ran out of gas,(drop them in a bucket of water) doe's the job just though. You are right about using an oven to dry the rods. That is where the old pie warmer welders were great, throw the bitumen/paper container on top to warm the rods, they also had a frequency converter on them, to help start welding, (that's what I think they were called).
Bloody CRAFT disease. EM F Pilot ARc learned to weld with one 45yrs ago. we had a knob type 1 push in all knobs 200 amps seen them earlier ones had knife switches for current setting. great welders got 2 here the old man's and another they never wear out and weigh abt 300 kg all copper wound. last a hundred years but not pretty . weld with 6 gauge rods and at 2oo amps they penetrate.
Where I finished my apprentice ship we fixed any thing came in the door. They had a dc welder driven by a 3 ph motor current was adjusted by sliding a heavy drawer in and out. it had notches on it and favorite trick on a ''newbie'' me they would sneak up flip the latch so when you struck the arc'''SLAAAAM BAAAANG' the drawer was slammed home as it acted like a solenoid and with the notches unlatched ' making you loosen the bowels so to speak,brought the boss out of his office to see who was mucking around only to laugh at the new initiate had been ''blooded''. Fond memories. John.

Yep the same here, I have about half a packet full & noticed they have a whitish powder on some of them, even though they have been stored in a workshop steel cabinet.
They would be about 40 yrs old.
So, thanks for the heating in the oven trick, will try that.
Throw something out ?
No possible way, might need it soon !
Never been known to throw anything out.
Regards
Bruce

Originally Posted by Abratool

Just checked my old stock of CIG 2.5mm dia Arcraft rods.
Although they have a white powdery coating, the flux coating is very brittle & flaking off on many of them.
During the infrequent time that I have used them its been difficult to stike & maintain a stable arc, compared to when they were new.
So they are going out, heading to the store now to get some newies.
Thanks again.
regards
Bruce

I couldn't resist.

Dean

Originally Posted by Oldneweng

I couldn't resist.

Dean

Neither could I,

Originally Posted by Grahame Collins

I would like to correct a misconception about brittle fracture of steel and moisture in electrodes ,particularly those used in a Home diy environment.

What is Hydrogen embrittlement

“Hydrogen embrittlement is the process by which various metals, most importantly high-strength steel, become brittle and fracture following exposure to hydrogen. “

So sayeth the initial paragraph in Wiki. Note that it says high strength steel.

Looking at that from the point of view of a home DIY welder, some points need to be looked at and explained.

High strength steel
High strength steel is not something we are likely to encounter unless we are building something that is highly stressed in its daily operation.

As an example, crane lift booms and some pressure vessels and pressure vessel piping are the type of high strength such as being referred to in the context of hydrogen embrittlement.

A house beam is only Grd 350 carbon steel, and I would not consider it unless it is holding up a sky scraper.

Types of electrodes

When dealing with steel (susceptible to Hydrogen embrittlement) that is to be welded, welding is NOT carried out with mild steel home variety electrodes-ie weld craft- but rather hydrogen controlled electrodes. Low hydrogen electrodes aka LH electrodes are the electrode type which require moisture control by storing the opened packs in a temperature oven.. The molten flux can also serve to absorb the hydrogen into it.

Be aware that,other conditions can induce hydrogen into your welds.

Other causes of failure

Grease ,paint , and dirt if present on the parent plate cam be welded over and give the same result as moisture- hydrogen infused into the weld. Certainly there can be hydrogen caused root bead cracking but there's not likely to be the level of load to cause catastrophic failure.

How to avoid failures
Failures of home welded equipment be it a trailer or a kids swing are far more likely to be due to causes of poor workmanship/technique / poor material choice and straight out poor welding where a simple visual inspection will usually reveal any defects that will be cause for rejection. We are talking undercut ,slag inclusion, craters, and crater cracks.

Hopefully that improves the understanding of hydrogen embrittlement.

Cheers

Grahame

Let us not forget that Cellulose electrodes, (firesticks), are also used for much pipeline work and are one of the few electrodes that love moisture.
Low Hydrogen electrodes are but one step to achieving high strength, hydrogen free welds, there is much more to it than that.