Thread: This year's awards 2014

Originally Posted by Michael G

No. I am trying to differentiate between information and knowledge. Information (facts if you prefer) is useful to have but unless it is understood (that is, converted to knowledge through discussion, further study/ examination or practical application), it is dangerous stuff and potentially misleading......................................
Michael

Knowledge = your personal view of the world
Facts = a description of the real world
Knowledge without facts = stuck in the past

Originally Posted by Michael G

........................................
The point I was trying to make in previous posts is that looking up information on the internet does not necessarily provide an understanding of that information. To be able to claim that someone has acquired knowledge requires further effort on their part - thought, maybe discussion and perhaps application. Without that understanding there is no way of knowing whether that information is correct, complete or even fits the context. To then present that information on a forum like this without disclaimers acknowledging the source or the extent of how that information fits the poster's own knowledge is (apart from being intellectually dishonest) dangerous.
Michael

Are you suggesting that "on a forum like this" it would be better to present no information at all, rather than personally biassed information? That would be very narrow sighted indeed. Then again, narrow sightedness is indeed a problem in modern times teaching and learning. Where more and more narrow specialist knowledge seems to replace a broad generalist knowledge foundation. THAT is "dangerous stuff and potentially misleading". Not information.

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

Knowledge = your personal view of the world
Facts = a description of the real world
Knowledge without facts = stuck in the past

And then there is Rollie's dad....


And after that there is personal faith...

Originally Posted by Michael G

The point I was trying to make in previous posts is that looking up information on the internet does not necessarily provide an understanding of that information.

I couldn't agree more, however the thing you seem to overlook/ignore is that is equally true no matter how the information is gained.

Originally Posted by Michael G

To be able to claim that someone has acquired knowledge requires further effort on their part - thought, maybe discussion and perhaps application. Without that understanding there is no way of knowing whether that information is correct, complete or even fits the context.

Again I could agree more, but I would also add that futher study (i.e. using multiple sources) can also be a way of gaining that further knowledge and understanding. The internet is a perfectly acceptable source of information and a very useful tool for further study of a subject.

Originally Posted by Michael G

To then present that information on a forum like this without disclaimers acknowledging the source or the extent of how that information fits the poster's own knowledge is (apart from being intellectually dishonest) dangerous.

Sorry but that is just a little ridiculous ... are you seriously saying that anyone who presents any information on this forum needs to also acknowledge where they came by this information? As mentioned, that information could be gained from multiple sources, or from their boss Joe Blogs during their apprenticeship ... and what are Joe's qualifications, what were his sources and what level of understanding did he actually have on said subject.

Originally Posted by Ueee

Clearly there are 2 people involved here that have no idea......
The guy who wrote that article and the one who just posted it above.....

a 38m lathe that can fit 13 to 10m between centers??

It says its a roller lathe. Maybe it means it can face an up 38m long ship propeller shaft, supporting it with several rollers. But then its carriage may only be capable to move over a length of 13m for 10m of turning?
A loong time ago I did an apprenticehip with switzerland's largest machine maker. Large turbine shafts were machined in sections, then inertia friction welded together on a lathe with roller supports. I've only watched, no personal hands on experience.....

The rpm figure must be a misprint. The spindle speed of such large lathe is surely more in the range of 0.1-0.5rpm.

These silly people, just don't have any undersatndning of what they're selling.

http://shubmachinery.com/machine/wal...vy-duty-lathe/

This lathe is same as the lathe in my previous link. The specs:
SpecificationsConvert to US

Maximum Swing	3,000 mm
Maximum Workpiece Length - Turning	13,000 mm
Maximum Workpiece Length - Boring	10,000 mm
Weight Between Centers	80 Ton
Turning Diameter Range	0 - 3,000 mm
Boring Diameter Range	350 - 1,800 mm
Wokrpiece Bed Height	700 mm
Bed Width Above Guideways	1,700 mm
Approximate Bed Length	26,500 mm
Number of Guideways	2
Faceplate Outer Diameter	2,400 mm
Number of Clamping Jaws	4
Carriage Bed Height	700 mm
Carriage Bed Width Above Guideways	1,400 mm
Carriage Bed Length	18,000 mm
Carriage Bed Number of Guideways	2
Headstock Drive Capacity - Main Drive	160 kW
Headstock Speed Adjustment Range	60 - 2,400 rpm
Faceplate Speed - Step 1	1 - 41.2 rpm
Faceplate Speed - Step 2	4.2 - 169 rpm
Nominal Speed - Step 1	10.3 rpm
Nominal Speed - Step 2	42.2 rpm
Torque at Faceplate	130000 Nm

I have it on good authority that these specs are wrong. Thanks to our resident expert I now know 10m or 13m into 38m just doesn't go!.

Originally Posted by Vernonv

Sorry but that is just a little ridiculous ... are you seriously saying that anyone who presents any information on this forum needs to also acknowledge where they came by this information? As mentioned, that information could be gained from multiple sources, or from their boss Joe Blogs during their apprenticeship ... and what are Joe's qualifications, what were his sources and what level of understanding did he actually have on said subject.

Not quite but if people quote from google it should be acknowledged; if they are not sure about something that should be stated; if based on personal experience it should be apparent. The majority of issues discussed here may not warrant quoting references but they should be available if needed and when the question may impact safety or failure could cause material damage I would expect it.

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

Are you suggesting that "on a forum like this" it would be better to present no information at all, rather than personally biassed information? That would be very narrow sighted indeed.

I am suggesting that if the only information you have on a topic is from the internet and have no supporting experience or knowledge then yes, perhaps you should not be presenting that information. Personal bias is indeed a problem, but I would hope that members here are able to filter that out, especially if the underlying information is basically correct.

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

Then again, narrow sightedness is indeed a problem in modern times teaching and learning. Where more and more narrow specialist knowledge seems to replace a broad generalist knowledge foundation.

Indeed, and that is why I have spent the last few years discussing this very issue with a local University and ways to get around the narrow focus that they have moved to. From my position in private industry I see many managers and engineers who are stuck in the past and really don't have much of a clue about what constitutes reality in the wide world.


Gentlemen, I have no great interest in pursuing a topic that is way off topic from the thread title and moreover having to argue in favour of practices accepted as the standard way of doing things in learning institutions since before "modern times". If members feel that lifting information from the internet without knowing what it means or how it is applied is acceptable by all means go ahead and do it. I can't stop you. Cultivating general knowledge is worthwhile but there is a difference between knowledge and information.

Michael

Originally Posted by Michael G

If members feel that lifting information from the internet without knowing what it means or how it is applied is acceptable by all means go ahead and do it.

Here I fixed it for you. But then again no one is suggesting that that is a good thing to do, regardless of the source.

You seem unable to accept that the internet is just another medium for information gathering/research (just like books, personal experience, etc).

I would bet that the majority of the external research/study done in universities is access via the internet ... we must be doomed.

Originally Posted by emanon

These silly people, just don't have any undersatndning of what they're selling.

http://shubmachinery.com/machine/wal...vy-duty-lathe/

This lathe is same as the lathe in my previous link. The specs:
SpecificationsConvert to US

Maximum Swing	3,000 mm
Maximum Workpiece Length - Turning	13,000 mm
Maximum Workpiece Length - Boring	10,000 mm
Weight Between Centers	80 Ton
Turning Diameter Range	0 - 3,000 mm
Boring Diameter Range	350 - 1,800 mm
Wokrpiece Bed Height	700 mm
Bed Width Above Guideways	1,700 mm
Approximate Bed Length	26,500 mm
Number of Guideways	2
Faceplate Outer Diameter	2,400 mm
Number of Clamping Jaws	4
Carriage Bed Height	700 mm
Carriage Bed Width Above Guideways	1,400 mm
Carriage Bed Length	18,000 mm
Carriage Bed Number of Guideways	2
Headstock Drive Capacity - Main Drive	160 kW
Headstock Speed Adjustment Range	60 - 2,400 rpm
Faceplate Speed - Step 1	1 - 41.2 rpm
Faceplate Speed - Step 2	4.2 - 169 rpm
Nominal Speed - Step 1	10.3 rpm
Nominal Speed - Step 2	42.2 rpm
Torque at Faceplate	130000 Nm

I have it on good authority that these specs are wrong. Thanks to our resident expert I now know 10m or 13m into 38m just doesn't go!.

You know what, you win. Whatever you want to call yourself this week it doesn't fool me. I'm out.

Knowledge is a subject that get's a lot of time in first year philosophy courses, I think learning is something that you never stop doing, sometimes you learn by your own mistakes, sometimes the mistakes of others, sometimes you learn by googling.. sometimes you learn by just shutting up and listening.. with the depth of knowledge available on here I'm favouring the latter.

Here's to the many good people on here with years of knowledge and expertise that they willingly share.

Ray

I'm at a loss as to why you would post something like this:

'Clearly there are 2 people involved here that have no idea......'

And:

'You know what, you win. Whatever you want to call yourself this week it doesn't fool me. I'm out.'


It's not about winning or losing Ueee, I simply posted a little information in support of a post. Probably wise to remember who started on who. Would I be wasting my time suggesting we bury the hatchet? I'm sure other forumites don't want to hear any more!

Originally Posted by Michael G

Gentlemen, I have no great interest in pursuing a topic that is way off topic from the thread title and moreover having to argue in favour of practices accepted as the standard way of doing things in learning institutions since before "modern times". If members feel that lifting information from the internet without knowing what it means or how it is applied is acceptable by all means go ahead and do it. I can't stop you. Cultivating general knowledge is worthwhile but there is a difference between knowledge and information.

Michael

FWIW I agree with you. If you haven't personally done something, haven't personally observed something being done and your total knowledge *and* experience WRT a question asked comes from the internet *or* books (whatever), then have the intellectual honesty to say so and provide a link/reference to the source of your information. Because all you're doing is regurgitating information the accuracy and/or applicability of which you, actually, do not know.

This is so basic in my old fields that I'm at a loss to understand why people think it's in any way controversial.

Incidentally, for all those still convinced that you can use a MT shank without drawbar or other positive lock into spindle to hold a milling cutter successfully, there was an interesting thread on PM recently about doing just that in a HBM, somewhat stiffer than your average POS drill press. I'll leave it up to the people interested to find the thread for themselves; I already know from personal experience how well that works out and have no desire to try it again......

PDW

Originally Posted by PDW

If you haven't personally done something, haven't personally observed something being done and your total knowledge *and* experience WRT a question asked comes from the internet *or* books (whatever), then have the intellectual honesty to say so and provide a link/reference to the source of your information. Because all you're doing is regurgitating information the accuracy and/or applicability of which you, actually, do not know.

Possibly if you are using a single source.

Now I don't know about you, but if I have done sufficient research to be confident of what I am talking about, then I'll be buggered if I am going to track down and list every piece of information I used to formulate that understanding, just to satisfy some pedants on a web forum. We are not writing a thesis paper here, are we.

I starting to wonder if I am wrong, but I figured most people are intelligent enough not to take one anonymous persons opinion written on a web page (or written in a book, or told face to face) as gospel in matters of anything significant.

Originally Posted by Vernonv

Possibly if you are using a single source.

Now I don't know about you, but if I have done sufficient research to be confident of what I am talking about, then I'll be buggered if I am going to track down and list every piece of information I used to formulate that understanding, just to satisfy some pedants on a web forum. We are not writing a thesis paper here, are we.

Shrug. Would you think it unreasonable to say something on the lines of 'I haven't done this myself but I read that........'?

I really don't care a lot. If I don't personally know you and I haven't seen any of your bodies (WIP) then I'm only going to give limited credence to anything you say. I'd just be happier - and trust what you said a bit more - if you distinguished between what you know from having done it and what you know from a book or watching Youtube videos.

Not a lot to ask IMO.......

PDW

Originally Posted by PDW

Would you think it unreasonable to say something on the lines of 'I haven't done this myself but I read that........'?

No, not unreasonable at all ... and often statements to that effect are made.

Originally Posted by PDW

watching Youtube videos.

Isn't that ...

observed something being done