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Thread: Buying a lathe

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fossil View Post
    Hmmmm. I have it saved in my ebay watched list and it has it as ended auction with 0 bidders?????

    Just saw the $6k

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  3. #17
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    One name I did notice that is worth checking is the Takisawa. The Japanese do some really good stuff. The number one best God asks these guys for advice and of the Europeans not even Hermle can equal is Mori Seiki. Find an old Mori and you will be amazed.

    Japanese machines there are many, Mazak (aka Yamazaki) Matsushita and many others as well.

    I have worked on a few lathes ie made stuff using lathes but no nothing about doing gun barrels that is a specialist area, however you must be careful to get your lathe properly leveled. It isn't actually the bed being level or not that matter but it is really important that the level or out of level is the same all the way along. Basically the same amount of support on all the feet. If it is not you get twisting of the bed and no chance of doing accurate work along a long length.

    Put this here for the regular forum guys. The original poster seems to have done a hit and run

    Studley
    Aussie Hardwood Number One

  4. #18
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    My father.... now very old and in a nursing home, used to say all the time......

    If you could make a drill bit so fine that that you could hardly see it, and give it to the Japs, they could drill a hole right down the guts of it.

    Just thought I would share a statement that I grew up with. I think I heard the old fella say that over 1000 times as I was growing up.

  5. #19
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    Default Lathe

    I remember growing up when I was young and the talk was "Made in Japan", its junk, I remember the Poms saying that you could not build a 2 stroke larger then a 250, wouldn't work, Suzuki brought out a 500 twin, it worked great, I use to drag race one back in the late sixties down at the Surfers International Drag Raceway. "Its a golf course now". The Japs just got better and better at making stuff, we have their TV's in our lounge room, their cars in our garages. Then it was Taiwan's turn. "Taiwanese junk". They make some good industrial equipment. Its China's turn now, it must be junk. give them time gents and they will be up there where the Britsh use to be with quality and where the yanks once had it. As for making gun bits and pieces check to see if that is legal first or do you need a license, you could be mistaken for another Hicks if the neighbour's are up to what your are doing, last rifle barrel I looked had had lathe turn marks all the way down to where it screwed into the breech, so I am not sure if they are forged, getting the lands or rifling in will require a special tool that you may have to make yourself.

    Buy a CNC machine, learn programming then sit back and watch the "Marzookas" being made for you. (just joking)

    Buy what you can afford at the time, the older machines require some knowledge, if you are into belts, knobs and dials chasing parts and a long wait in between before turning anything then that is your path (good luck).

    Sure would love one of them fancy Colchester lathes though but I have not got the $12,000 starting price for one.

    D D

  6. #20
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    Factories make gun barrels off production machines made specially for it. The outside of the barrel doesn't matter, it's not the business end. I assume if he wants to make 1 off gun parts at home he's going for quality. If you cut rifling and bore on a lathe you won't get target rifle accuracy. It can be done, but the machine will have to be properly set up for it. The rifling is more like a flute than threads, long pitch and you have to get the corners perfect so the spin it puts on the bullet is consistent and it doesn't encourage bits of bullet to stick, clogging the barrel making inconsisent shooting and requiring more frequent cleaning.

    So it's easier to do on a forge or with a broach and some handwork.

    Also most of the bits of the firing mechanism aren't cylindrical, and whether they are or not it's all about fit. The levers that connect the trigger to the firing pin have to slide smoothly and snap crisply. Again a factory can afford speciaised and quality tooling to get consistent results, but ask any shooter who's had a rifle "fiddled" by a good gunsmith how much nicer it is afterwards.

    Most gunsmiths have a lathe in the corner, but it's not the "go to" machine, as the Americans would say. It's a handy side issue. It's like saying you need a router table to make a gun stock. Yes you could use it for a few things but it's not the primary tool.

    If you asked me to make a quality gun I'd want a forge, anvil, hacksaw, hammers and a good set of files.

    Of course a lathe is always nice to have

    BTW for clarity I wasn't bagging any _quality_ lathe from any source. If the chinese/Taiwanese have started making quality machines more power to them, but the ones I've seen have issues. I haven't used some of the machines mentioned above, I'm happy to believe they are great. Of the machines I have used I have my preferences. Colchesters are IMO a minimum standard. Well set up you can extract good work from them. Some of the asian stuff I've seen you virtually have to reengineer the machine to make it work properly, and if your going to do that you might as well buy an older machine and recondition it. I paid $800 for the hercus, and no new asian machine I've seen for that money has power cross feed. I've seen triumphs go for about $4k and you won't buy a chinese machine that size new for that money as far as I know. I'd just prefer an old mk1 to a new chinese thing. I know I can get the mk1 to go, and once sorted it'll give a lifetimes service. Personal preference.
    Last edited by damian; 20th June 2008 at 09:32 AM. Reason: spelling

  7. #21
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    Have been on all sorts of machines. The best ones were all Japanese. Mazak and Okuma in particualar BUT big but too the Mori Seiki's are on a higher level again.

    Have been on lots of English machines decent for old manual machines but I think it is more of a once were great type of thing. Actually another place to look is Korea. Daewoo is known for making some good stuff, but I personally think they are not as good as the Mazaks and co of the world but they are good machines.

    For price buying a machine Mori and Daewoo's hold their value really well. There are many Jap machines that don't keep value but at the money you are getting something much better than the Mori you will get for the same money. Daewoos too when they are old seem to go for prices more than they deserve. I saw a really nice Hidekai the other week on ebay. Was a 4 axis lathe with a single turret and live tooling. It was 25 years old looked very good the shop it was in looked very good and it sold for $17,000 US. had an 87 mm spindle bore 25 HP and was good for 4000 rpm. I think the turret had 12 tool positions. It was a really good machine only old Any piece of junk equivalent here in Oz would go for $100,000 plus so there are some good bargains out there.

    I don't know about making guns but lathes are my trade. The hard thing about a rifle barrel is that is is very long and it must be parallel all the way down. Drilling is hard because a drill will wander away from centre after about two or three times its diameter. Can be quiet a bit off when you get through a bit of steel. So you have to allow enough to bore it correctly. A borning bar is good for a bore about 4 times it's diameter. So if you are doing a 9mm bore you could make it about 36mm long! After that it gets hard. I suspect they do a rifle bore by running a broach through it. Making long stuff really parallel isn't easy, in fact if you were boring a rifle you might find that halfway in between supports it flexes as you bore it giving you a smaller diameter bore. As you go down it the bar could flex giving you taper, big at the near end small at the far end. I would reckon that people use some very specialised tools to do all this stuff.

    Which doesn't mean I am trying to rain on anyone's parade because there are many who do this stuff at home for their pleasure and even to get a gun that is just what they want to shoot with. It can be done but don't think it is that easy.

    Practical Machinist has a gun forum you might find some stuff there.

    Studley
    Aussie Hardwood Number One

  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Studley 2436 View Post
    .....looked very good and it sold for $17,000 US. ..... It was a really good machine only old... Any piece of junk equivalent here in Oz would go for $100,000 plus so there are some good bargains out there.Studley
    That is also true at the 'bottom feeder' level that most of us find ourselves in. I have a hankering for a particular kind of small mill. A couple of months ago I had two available. One in Sydney, but 1937 vintage, dealer wanted over $13K. The other was in south Carolina, 1970's vintage. Shipped it was going to be $6K, including taxes. There were even cheaper ones on eBay U.S. at the time too.

    (I remain sans mill currently...still knee deep in two lathe restorations which will take another year or so at present rate)

    (anybody got a laser collimator that I can borrow?)

    Greg

  9. #23
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    I have used a lot of different lathes over the years ,ones I remember ,
    Colchesters
    Macson
    South bend
    Hercus
    Dean Smith and Grace ,actually rebuilt this one it was of 1916 vintage and a magnificent piece of kit Still going today too.
    Mazak
    Harrison


    You'll waste a lot of time and materials trying to make your own barrels most gunsmiths buy blanks already rifled and cut the threads and ream the breech to required cartridge .Special drills are required (gundrills) for deep drilling barrels ,these cut on one side only and are solid on the other to support the cutting edge and prevent wandering ,they also have a coolant port drilled through them , high pressure coolant is force fed down the centre of the drill to flush away swarf and metal chips.
    http://www.sterlinggundrills.com/dee...n_drills.shtml
    http://www.dmetool.com/
    http://www.hammco.com/gundrills_gundrilldesign.htm
    The second link has a video of a gun drill in action ,ok if you have a fast connection.

    There are a few ways to rifle a barrel but the two most common methods are forged where the barrel is drilled and a male spigot with the rifling in reverse is placed in the hole in the blank ,the blank is then heated and hammered onto the male spigot.The spigot is with drawn and the rifling is then lapped smooth ,the outside taper is machined after wards..
    The other method is button swageing or broaching ,where a carbide button is drawn through the barrel as the barrel is rotated at the required twist.

    A fascinating process of engineering that has always interested me.

    Kev
    Last edited by Woodlee; 20th June 2008 at 10:56 PM. Reason: repair some spelling
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  10. #24
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    Default Gun drills

    Interesting link there Woodley, no I can put a name to that funny looking drill bit in the Hornady reloading book.

    D D

  11. #25
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    I have dealt with a machinist guy recently, who looking at the work he turns out seems to know his stuff. He has a Mazac which he says is the best machine he has ever used. He reckons it will go to the grave with him.

    I was looking around this morning and noticed a nice looking Takisawa here.
    http://www.machines4u.com.au/view/?a...r=price&page=2

    It would be real nice to have a decent heavy lathe in my workshop.
    Toys Toys Toys, as my wife says.

  12. #26
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    That image is lifted right out of an old catalogue though, unless I'm missing another link. There is/was one on eBay this week too. The dealer that has it lists a few things every week, sells a couple of things a year. I think that his price expectations are optimistic to say the least.

    There was a university Takisawa toolroom last year that only fetched $4,400 complete, pristine, tooling up the wazoo. I may even have posted it here with no replies at the time.

    I have only read good things about Mazak machines too. If I ever get the space and money and permission all at the same time I might go hunting for one. Toys toys toys is right. Sometimes even the quest is toy enough...

  13. #27
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    actually if you want to learn ISO code you can get a CNC machine slant bed and as much as 6000 rpm for under 10000. Some real good value out there.

    There are bigger machines that have lower speeds and more power for machining bigger stuff but you don't need a machine that size for home use.

    Studley
    Aussie Hardwood Number One

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo Dog View Post
    I remember growing up when I was young and the talk was "Made in Japan", its junk, I remember the Poms saying that you could not build a 2 stroke larger then a 250, wouldn't work, Suzuki brought out a 500 twin, it worked great, I use to drag race one back in the late sixties down at the Surfers International Drag Raceway. "Its a golf course now". The Japs just got better and better at making stuff, we have their TV's in our lounge room, their cars in our garages. Then it was Taiwan's turn. "Taiwanese junk". They make some good industrial equipment. Its China's turn now, it must be junk. give them time gents and they will be up there where the Britsh use to be with quality and where the yanks once had it.

    I couldn't agree more - as I have often said that - however given my experience working with Chinese students and tradespeople it maybe a while yet given that they (generally speaking) think it is more important to do the job asap rather than concentrating on quality

    Buy what you can afford at the time, the older machines require some knowledge, if you are into belts, knobs and dials chasing parts and a long wait in between before turning anything then that is your path (good luck).

    Sure would love one of them fancy Colchester lathes though but I have not got the $12,000 starting price for one.

    Given that the company I presently work for bought a brand new one only 2 years ago I was very disappointed with it (it won't take cuts of more than 5mm deep on MS without stalling. They have a much older 2000 version that is used more often by the F&T's (they don't build them like they used to).

    The best lathes I have ever used was a DSG that (were in the 60's to 80's) classed as the rolls royce of lathes in the UK. The best one I have worked on over here is a Okuma. It is so well made - it even has the wheel on the tailstock set at 120 degrees to the axis so you can operate it from the front. However I haven't ever used a Mori Seiki's or Takisawa yet so maybe the best is yet to come? MH

    D D
    Btw, that lathe that was mentioned on EBay earlier was being sold by a guy that was also selling an excellent Bridgeport that went for around the $6000+ mark.

    Ta
    MH

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