Thread: Cheap high quality tooling

I've had a few drills twist, not quite like that, but they all untwisted from the bottom of the flutes and worked their way up. Generally speaking the drills sets you pay $30 - $40 for will do that even if you're careful. Horses for courses: I don't use them in the shed; rather, I have a set I carry in the caravan which are fine for aluminium and wood. Why buy a set for $100+ that will see very little use and probably never drill anything tougher than aluminium or wood. They are also great for tight spaces: just bend them a little, or a lot, and you can drill around corners!
If you look for an item on ebay/aliexpress you'll get hits for the same item from a number of providers and with a great variety of prices. My experience has shown if you pick the cheapest - you will get the cheapest. I stick with mid priced items, I have never had a problem with them. Plenty of problems with the lowest priced though - particularly electronic items - faulty soldering, etc. You get what you pay - seems to me I've heard that before!

Originally Posted by eskimo

But from where...who etc
Not all chinese stuff is of reasonable quality

I've dealt with four different suppliers and I'm happy with them all. Tide Machine Tools seem to have the widest range of stock, but their packaging could be better. The keyway broaches that I bought from them had the boxes damaged on arrival, but the tooling was fine.
The other supplier that may be of interest is Wenlin Tianqiao Tool Co., Ltd.. The guy I have been dealing with there is JinBo and he gets back to me sometimes in minutes. They seem to specialize in drills and reamers, but he has contacts and can pretty much supply anything that I request. He gave me a quote the other day for a mate of mine that is looking for a read out for his lathe. I just ordered a set of taper shank twist drill from him. 13mm up to 25mm in half mm increments. His ISO tips are more expensive than Tide, but he is just so prompt in getting back to me and so fast despatching orders that I'm happy to pay a little more. The last order that I put through to him had a two delay on one item and he was so apologetic.

Yes I understand not all Chinese stuff is of reasonable quality. Actually I bought a set of long series pin punches from CTC a couple of years ago and the first time I used the 6mm it bent like a piece of spaghetti!
It's really like saying that all hamburger shops here in Australia sell fantastic hamburgers. You are really stating the obvious here.

Originally Posted by Grahame Collins

Is not that a rare left hand /right hand combination drill?

Gesalt,
Please know that we all have been stung before by reasonable Chinese quality.Some stuff can be good but it is difficult to tell from a distance. By naming the vendor, others who have dealt with the same company can offer good or bad experiences with them.

Grahame

Hi Grahame, see my reply to eskimo. There are another two that have been really good, but their contact details are on another PC. I'll get more details at a later date.

Originally Posted by jhovel

Gestalt, would you mind telling us your source(s) for quality Chinese tools, please?
Despite the conversation, I too believe in Chinese quality tools and equipment. We are just not normally the customers of those manufacturers since they don't have to sell via eBay or Alibaba - just like you don't find ads from German or Swiss or Japanese or American quality manufacturers there. Because fo the language difficulties, they are hard for us to find.....
THe crap sold through the eBay and Ali channels are obviously pictured above. Funny that, 40 years ago we used to make fun of the cheap American crap we got sold through ads in Popular Mechanics and other hobby magazines like it.....
The Chinese learnt everything about international high-volume low-cost trade from the Americans - and the Internet allowed them to improve on it...

Hi jhovel, That's a good point about the language barrier. Tide tools are a little like that. The best way to deal with them is to quote their part numbers on the order. That way if will minimize any potential mistakes. I didn't mention it in the above replys, but Tide have a 300 page hard copy catalogue that they will send out to you.
I remember the days when anything coming from Japan or Taiwan was utter crap. Look where they are now. In fact two of my best machines are Taiwanese. The King Rich universal mill and the Microweily centre lathe.
China is fast following suit. With that said though, I think I'd still be wary buying big ticket machine items.

Originally Posted by Driftabout

When I was a lad, my old man would go on about the Jap rubbish that was cheap and nasty. I suspect the Chines are following a similar upward path while here in Australia we let our onshore manufacturing capability decay.

I don't think it's a matter of letting our manufacturing capabilities decaying as such. It's because of the totally different economic structures. We just can't compete. How can we when the going rate in China is US$10.00 per day.
Even if we automate everything and take out as much of the labor content as possible, we still have admin, raw materials, packaging, etc. Just look at the cost of that piece of HSS that I mentioned in my first post. I don't know how much the Chinese pay for our iron ore, but I'm sure they could process it for next to nothing and hence keep their value added products lower in price also.

Originally Posted by bob ward

Gestalt, if you have come across another CTC type of business please share.

My definition of a CTC type business is an oriental tooling seller who actually knows and cares about what he is selling.

Hi Bob, See my other replys. The only real downside with this off shore purchasing is the cost of freight. Items like ISO tips are great because there is little weight and they are not bulky. Hence the freight component ratio to the landed cost is negligible. That being said though, the landed price here on larger items is still well under half of what you'd pay at H&F.

Originally Posted by Gunnaduit

So which are the good Asian tooling manufacturers and sellers now?
As in, whose (Asian) products would it be a good bet to look out for?
Is Vertex one of them? Mitutoyo (but maybe Japan isn't classed as Asian)? Who else?

Vertex make great products. Another example of a quality Taiwanese company. Mitutoyo are obviously a world leader with their products, but they are just so expensive now. I heard a story recently about all the fake Mitutoyo products being sold on ebay. Dial indicators mainly.
I had the need for a 0 - 25mm outside ball micrometer a few of years back. Mitutoyo here in Melbourne had one in stock, but it cost me something like $130.00.

Originally Posted by Gestalt

Vertex make great products. Another example of a quality Taiwanese company. Mitutoyo are obviously a world leader with their products, but they are just so expensive now. I heard a story recently about all the fake Mitutoyo products being sold on ebay. Dial indicators mainly.
I had the need for a 0 - 25mm outside ball micrometer a few of years back. Mitutoyo here in Melbourne had one in stock, but it cost me something like $130.00.

I agree vertex makes really good gear. We have bought a bit of their stuff at work and have been very happy with them. Mitutoyo stuff is worth every cent in my option, I've used a few different brands of measuring equipment and i believe they are the best. The fakes on ebay are a real problem mitutoyo has a info on how to spot them on their website. I'm very careful whenever I buy mitutoyo gear on ebay now.

Originally Posted by Gestalt

Vertex make great products. Another example of a quality Taiwanese company. Mitutoyo are obviously a world leader with their products, but they are just so expensive now. I heard a story recently about all the fake Mitutoyo products being sold on ebay. Dial indicators mainly.
I had the need for a 0 - 25mm outside ball micrometer a few of years back. Mitutoyo here in Melbourne had one in stock, but it cost me something like $130.00.

Vertex are Taiwanese. They built up a reputation making affordable vises and rotary tables and ER collet chucks / collets for the home shop. I would not rate their products high quality (I have a Kurt vise clone from Vertex, and a rotary table, and once had a collet chuck set from Vertex). I would say Vertex are great value, at a fraction of the price that real high quality would command. VERTEX-CO-PROFILE-MACHINE-TOOL-ACCESSORIES-VISE-

Mitutoyo is nowdays one of the top brands worldwide for metrology and command high prices. It was not always like that. In the 60's and 70's they were simply the cheapest that was available. Regarding fakes one has to be very careful... Mitutoyo has factories all around the world, including in China. Is a dial indicator made by Mitutoyo China for the Chinese or Indian market at a Chinese/Indian price a fake, if it ends up as a gray import on Australian eBay for half the Australian retail price? Are you sure Mitutoyo dial indicators sold by Mitutoyo Australia are made in Japan, and not in Mexico?

Vertex do not actually make all of the products sold under their name, they do however seem to source from decent manufacturers.

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

Vertex are Taiwanese. They built up a reputation making affordable vises and rotary tables and ER collet chucks / collets for the home shop. I would not rate their products high quality (I have a Kurt vise clone from Vertex, and a rotary table, and once had a collet chuck set from Vertex). I would say Vertex are great value, at a fraction of the price that real high quality would command. VERTEX-CO-PROFILE-MACHINE-TOOL-ACCESSORIES-VISE-

Mitutoyo is nowdays one of the top brands worldwide for metrology and command high prices. It was not always like that. In the 60's and 70's they were simply the cheapest that was available. Regarding fakes one has to be very careful... Mitutoyo has factories all around the world, including in China. Is a dial indicator made by Mitutoyo China for the Chinese or Indian market at a Chinese/Indian price a fake, if it ends up as a gray import on Australian eBay for half the Australian retail price? Are you sure Mitutoyo dial indicators sold by Mitutoyo Australia are made in Japan, and not in Mexico?

I have a DTI with the Mity name on the dial. I bought it cheap from EBay. It was the best price I could find at the time for a DTI. At no point was the name "Mitutoyo" mentioned in the listing, except for showing in the pictures. These were terrible anyway and hard to read. Is this a fake? Certainly. At least from my perspective.

Is a dial indicator made by Mitutoyo China for the Chinese or Indian market at a Chinese/Indian price a fake, if it ends up as a gray import on Australian eBay for half the Australian retail price?

If is is sold as a genuine Mity, then yes it is because it does not meet the expectations required here. Hard to prove this tho. A bit of a grey area? lol

Dean

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

Vertex are Taiwanese. They built up a reputation making affordable vises and rotary tables and ER collet chucks / collets for the home shop. I would not rate their products high quality (I have a Kurt vise clone from Vertex, and a rotary table, and once had a collet chuck set from Vertex). I would say Vertex are great value, at a fraction of the price that real high quality would command. VERTEX-CO-PROFILE-MACHINE-TOOL-ACCESSORIES-VISE-

Mitutoyo is nowdays one of the top brands worldwide for metrology and command high prices. It was not always like that. In the 60's and 70's they were simply the cheapest that was available. Regarding fakes one has to be very careful... Mitutoyo has factories all around the world, including in China. Is a dial indicator made by Mitutoyo China for the Chinese or Indian market at a Chinese/Indian price a fake, if it ends up as a gray import on Australian eBay for half the Australian retail price? Are you sure Mitutoyo dial indicators sold by Mitutoyo Australia are made in Japan, and not in Mexico?

I have a DTI with the Mity name on the dial. I bought it cheap from EBay. It was the best price I could find at the time for a DTI. At no point was the name "Mitutoyo" mentioned in the listing, except for showing in the pictures. These were terrible anyway and hard to read. Is this a fake? Certainly. At least from my perspective.

Is a dial indicator made by Mitutoyo China for the Chinese or Indian market at a Chinese/Indian price a fake, if it ends up as a gray import on Australian eBay for half the Australian retail price?

If is is sold as a genuine Mity, then yes it is because it does not meet the expectations required here. Hard to prove this tho. A bit of a grey area? lol

Dean

Originally Posted by Oldneweng

I have a DTI with the Mity name on the dial. I bought it cheap from EBay. It was the best price I could find at the time for a DTI. At no point was the name "Mitutoyo" mentioned in the listing, except for showing in the pictures. These were terrible anyway and hard to read. Is this a fake? Certainly. At least from my perspective.

If is is sold as a genuine Mity, then yes it is because it does not meet the expectations required here. Hard to prove this tho. A bit of a grey area? lol

Dean

But... is this not a genuine Mitutoyo, if it was made by a company with the name Mitutoyo and owned by Mitutoyo and applying quality standards of Mitutoyo? Essentially, you say if it does not meet the profit margin standards of Mitutoyo Australia, it is a fake. Whereas I think it is simply a gray import, not a fake. True, Mitutoyo Australia is not required to provide warranty for gray imports. But that is about the only "expectation" we can be sure of that it falls short of. Anything else may very well be up to par. Personally, I think the risk of a Mitutoyo caliper or indicator requiring a warranty repair or exchange is very small indeed.

The real problem is this:

- it is easy to differenciate between a grey import and an official import. Simply buy from an official Mitutoyo outlet at the official list price.

- but how can one differentiate between a fake and a grey import? It can be very difficult. Unless you can visit the country of manufacture in person, and buy from an official outlet over there. If you buy from eBay, there will always be the risk you will be sold a fake. You got to balance the potential savings against the risk of being taken for a ride.


Me personally, I make this decision all the time. Two years ago, a Husqvarna 346XP chainsaw was retailing here for 1,299. I got it from the US for $650, and that included the postage and two extra chains. I saved $649 by choosing a grey import. As expected, I had no warranty issues. Would I have taken the same risk if the ebay seller was in HongKong? No way. I cannot afford the risk of loosing $650 on a fake.

Essentially, you say if it does not meet the profit margin standards of Mitutoyo Australia, it is a fake.

That is not what I said, nor what I meant. I was not thinking of the Mitutoyo Company at all. I was thinking more about my own expectations, if I had bought this expecting it to be genuine. If the quality is up to their usual standard then I doubt that there would be an issue. I was assuming a lesser quality with the Chinese made unit however.

Some time ago I was reading about Honda and B&S engines made in China. One brand requires a serial number to prove the engine was made for the Australian market, before they would supply spare parts. The other accepted that gray imports were going to occur and why not make money selling spares anyway. I don't remember which is which. The moral of the story is to just go with the flow because there is nothing we can do to change it.

Dean