Thread: Cheap source of small run Al extrusions?

I imagine it's some weird and wonderful shape Michael.

I have only ever dealt with Capral and with their existing profiles. I don't know of any short run extruders in AU. Is the States an option? http://www.paramountextrusions.com/shapes.htm

Could an existing extrusion be modified?

Bob.

I cant think of anyone but I'll quiz some of the blokes at work on Tuesday and see if they have any leads.

Michael G

Do you have a drawing of the proposed profile?

Ken

Originally Posted by Anorak Bob

I imagine it's some weird and wonderful shape Michael.

Originally Posted by neksmerj

Do you have a drawing of the proposed profile?

There is a concept drawing (although it is being refined almost daily) but at the moment this is "commercial in confidence" type stuff, so sorry - no details yet (even though I know that everyone on the forum can be trusted implicitly). The shape is around 40mm long and 10 high and is probably best described as a flatish piece with several ribs branching off. In extrusion terms it is relatively simple (an open shape with reasonably uniform wall thickness), so it should not be difficult to manufacture. Unfortunately the shape is such that with a bit of thinking (and maybe a few guesses) the purpose can probably be determined. There should be a meeting next week (I hope) to discuss issues like IP protection, commercialisation and schedule.

I suspect the answer would come back that manufacture needs to be kept in country at the moment to avoid complicating the IP protection.

This is a new product (not at all similar to other existing ones) so ways to mitigate some of the risk are being considered. One is detailed evaluating and testing of prototypes but to do that properly, 'proper' parts are needed. That means money for tooling, but there is a reluctance to committing to expensive stuff until it is shown the concept embedded in the parts are sound. The product is aimed at a niche market too, so while we are hoping demand will surprise us, we are conscious that the more spent on development, the smaller the chances of being profitable.

I've probably said too much already...

Michael

Hi Michael, I looked up an old friend that had a contact in theBarossa for this, but they are no longer in business, found this company 500 KG hard, 250KG soft. minimum order though, They may be open to your job though. Extrusions Australia 25-28 Andretti Court Truganina, VIC 3026

Ph: 03 8348 9300 Fax: 03 83489301 www.extrusions.com.au

What's your circle size? I've got a couple extrusions in very low volume production right now. Die costs were $900 & $2200, both less than 4" circle. I've got one shop that can do very short runs.

In my case, the one bigger extrusion was hollow, kind of complicated, and would have been impossible to machine. But I've got 200' of it for around $5k (including die cost, fabrication fixture, and some fairly involved end machining), so it kind of depends on your prototyping budget. It might be cheaper just to have it extruded, and modify or replace the die if you need to make changes.
http://richmetals.com/ Richardson Metals are what this person used. Found it on the net. Unfortunately US based.

Originally Posted by KBs PensNmore

What's your circle size? I've got a couple extrusions in very low volume production right now. Die costs were $900 & $2200, both less than 4" circle. I've got one shop that can do very short runs.
In my case, the one bigger extrusion was hollow, kind of complicated, and would have been impossible to machine. But I've got 200' of it for around $5k (including die cost, fabrication fixture, and some fairly involved end machining), so it kind of depends on your prototyping budget. It might be cheaper just to have it extruded, and modify or replace the die if you need to make changes.
http://richmetals.com/ Richardson Metals are what this person used. Found it on the net. Unfortunately US based.

Circle size is around 40mm. $5k is probably about right for what it would cost for the Capral option. If the concept works and the product is accepted by the market* then it would not be too bad. However, the concern is if the shape is not quite right we have 600m of scrap (say $2.5k). If we are lucky perhaps $500 to mod the die, then another $2.5k of extrusion. If the die can not be modified maybe another $2.5k to make a new one. (Let's not get into the costs if it is still not right after that iteration...)
If a simple mod is required, that is still $3k to add to the amortisation - roughly $5 per metre extra in cost that has to be found somewhere. The new die option adds an extra $8.30 per metre. (There is a reluctance to amortise over more than one run given that sales volume is unknown - understandable).
Numbers like that can really hammer the target price and turn slightly profitable products into non-projects.

Michael

*Having thought about it, you guys will benefit from this thing, so if it gets to market I'm expecting positive things here.

Have you thought of the possibility of prototyping in the initial stages at least from plastic - assuming that's actually cheaper?

My guys used to machine their Solidworks designs out of a block of HDPE or similar before using aluminium or stainless. Cheaper to mill/turn.

PDW

where i work we deal with both plastic and aluminium extrusions.
unfortunately you cannot avoid the tooling cost and material as a minimun
plastic extruders are more flexible qty wise but their tooling costs are higher.
your best bet for a cheap product is to source it from China.
we do not do it as the tolerances we work with are very critical (multi part products)

how we deal with the problem you have is we will 3d print small sections to prove the concept and then we will just take the risk and spend the 3k to 5k depending on the complexity of the profile.

hope it helps

Originally Posted by Michael G

Unfortunately the shape is such that with a bit of thinking (and maybe a few guesses) the purpose can probably be determined.

It is a zero point flux free energy converter isn't it...

Originally Posted by .RC.

It is a zero point flux free energy converter isn't it...

Damn it RC!

Michael

Originally Posted by GRF

how we deal with the problem you have is we will 3d print small sections to prove the concept and then we will just take the risk and spend the 3k to 5k depending on the complexity of the profile.

Our problem is that the extrusion process may affect the fit, so while CAD plots/ models show that it works once we get a real life process going the fit may change (just one issues as an example of that - the profile is not symmetrical so I suspect that the profile will curve coming out of the die. How much?; will it affect fit?; will straightening it cause other problems? etc.). Tolerance will be critical here in a couple of places too.

China would be right out. I've worked for too many companies who have made product in China and then discovered pirate product being sold by other Chinese manufacturers. I'm told that it is improving but I and others would be wary of allowing any head start at all.

Michael

Hi Michael,

You should think about coming over to Melbourne for the manufacturing expo in May... I seem to remember a few exhibitors offering that sort of service at last years expo.

http://www.nationalmanufacturingweek.com.au/en/home/

Ray

the 3d prints help in checking how things come together and a general feel.
everything can be modeled on screen but that assembly touch is a lot of feedback.

the process of getting a custom extrusion made is
you first send your drawing to a company that extrudes
they will sketch it and give you a drawing of their own that will have the limitations and tolerances of the final product
you then have to make sure that what they given you is what you want (they will always ask you to check and sign their drawing not yours)
after you checked what they can do is suitable for the application you proceed with spending money.
the tolerances and changes of the original design are a negotiation process as they can improve tolerances for a price (up to a limit)

in other words you should not be worried about what they will do during extruding your profile. the result will be agreed upon before you proceed.
anything that is outside what you agreed will be rejected and scraped at their cost (it does happen)

every little detail will be on the drawing or referenced to an Australian standard (that you can ask them to explain it to you to a level that makes sense)

Hi Michael,
I worked as a designer in R & D for a company who used a lot of aluminium extrusions and so I was regularly making new prototypes.
We would spend hours leafing through catalogues for extrusions and then work out ways to mill/machine/saw, existing extrusions apart then pop rivet/weld/ glue sections together for prototype sections.

If you only want 10m to prove the concept, then may I suggest you follow the path most R & D's take.
With the machinery I've seen you have (and that was just your mill) I'm thinking that could be the starting point.

Good luck--it can be exciting
Most companies who sell extrusions (Alcan, Alcoa) have catalogues of extrusions, as do big commercial aluminium door manufacturers , pool fencers etc,