Thread: The Chinese experience

Funnily enough, the Golf wins best car in class just about every year, I think the Land or Range Rover does too. You would think the reviewers would put some weight on the reliability issues; it’s not as if it's a big secret. I read the other day that VW are finally going to do something about the issues plaguing some owners.

Thanks for those words of wisdom Machtool, I shall cherish them forever.

Behave kiddies.

The problem with Chinese products is that it is very difficult to predict quality. You can get high quality made in China, and you can get crap quality. And the price is NOT always a reliable indicator. Some dealers sell crap at inflated prices. I have never come across high quality products from China at a discount price, though.

- My two cordless Metabo drills are made in China. They work well. Cost $500 each if I recall well.
- I have several Chinese digital calipers (unlicensed copies of the Swiss Silvac). I use them for rough work, one rests constantly at the bandsaw. I am happy with them for the money. No, they do NOT move as silky smooth as my Mitutoyo absolute. They come with crap alkaline batteries that barely last one month. And even proper Silver cells do not last too long. But these Chinese calipers are still excellent value for money.
- I also bought three digital calipers from Aldi, absolute crap quality, ALL 3 failed within 6 months. Mind you, I consider myself quite experienced with Chinese calipers, between lathe and mill I have 5 modified and miniaturized Chinese calipers for DRO scales, with displays removed to save room. If I say the Aldi calipers are crap, I know exactly what I am talking about. Lesson learned.
- Some 6 years ago I bought a Chinese machinist protractor. Spent hours carefully de-burring it and turning it into something useable. Yes it reads angles, but it is no joy to use. Then about one year ago I bought a Starrett protractor, old and used, with engraved previous owner name. It is like day and night, vastly superior in every respect, a pleasure to use, easy and accurate to clamp etc etc. That is a used protractor probably 20 years old, a new one would be even better. Lesson learned.
- In a shop I recently had a look a Chinese vernier caliper. Machining marks and burrs, and a jerky motion. How can you take an accurate measurement without any feeling for the force applied?
- I remember once buying a Chinese angle grinder stand. Tried to use it once. Tossed it in disgust. Yes, it was irresistibly cheap. Lesson learned.
- Then again, from time to time I also buy Chinese tools that I am happy with. Last week a set of 5 countersinks for $25, I even ent back to buy a second set. For that price fantastic value.

The chinese factories are very good at making exactly what you pay for. The problem are the dealers, that often mark up low price crap quality and make it look like the good expensive stuff. It is very difficult to tell the difference if you cannot see and hold the items. These practices ruin the reputation of everything Chinese. Then again, I remember back in the 60's everything Japanese had the reputation of inferior crap... and just 20 years later suddenly everything Japanese was premium quality. Chris




- Other experiences include Chinese spiral drills, whose spiral unwinds.

I go to China, in an actual, physical sense, once a month or so. I have yet to see, in a few years of searching, anything but the most avaricious, money-centric, capitalistic, foreigner-screwing business ethos. Anywhere.

I find the Chinese to be the most direct, honest, bereft of artifice purveyors of crap that I have ever encountered on five continents. They are virtuosos when it comes to shifting stuff to buyers with varying degrees of naïveté. Yawn. Its their thing.

Would I buy a Chinese made iPhone? No choice, so: yes.
Would I fly in a Chinese airliner? No ####ing way.
Should I trust Chinese food producers? Just as far as I can throw them, yes.

I do appreciate that the Chinese make oceans of stuff for the west to consume. And I do appreciate that they do this because most of us want expedient, cheap, and I forget the other attribute...returnable? Warranteed? Just like Ozito?

Do not become mesmerised by the bad behaviour of one group or the other. VW group famously decided that self-destruction was a good corporate gambit. Psychopaths abound, not just at VW group. Brand leverage also rears its ugly head...as consumers we must always be wary of the latest offerings from any mfg. because the MBA ethos insists on milking the customer group for every dollar of profit right up until they wise up. Not for us the legacy relationship that our fathers enjoyed with the car/whitegoods/airline/department store brands. Back then life long implied agreements were hard-won, and cherished. Now? Not so much.

Still. I will never willingly buy a made in China anything when I have a choice. Except maybe those cheap knock-off rotor attachment bolts for my rescue helicopter. After all, its all the same thing, right?

Sadly Chris the companies of today are run by accountants and finance people who often don't give a toss about the company, instead of the engineers and skilled employees who built the reputation now being cashed in. The current mantra is "cut costs, cut costs, cut costs", and often to heck with quality. The designers and engineers now have little to no say in what goes on. The result is they look at the Chinese "solution" and samples are made up. Of course the samples are great. Done deal, let's offshore the lot. Still stick our quality name on it, but it's no longer made locally. Within a short space of time the quality starts to deteriorate. What can they do about it? Nothing! Anyone with any real experience has been sacked, so they can't bring it back in house even if they wanted to.

It's why I stressed quality western manufacturing when talking about good brands, and not just a so called "good name". The chances are that name possibly just rebrands crap and cashes in. What happens in 10 year's time when customers realise they're paying more for the same crap and refuse to buy that brand anymore? Who cares when you're a cashed up finance guy laying on a beach in the Bahamas sucking on your 15th Pina Colada for the morning!

Today I happened to visit a couple of local firms*, one of which makes lathe live centres and countersinks. The quality is just chalk and cheese over the typical Chinese garbage most of us would see targeted at the hobby market. As Phil said, if you've never had the pleasure of working with or on really well made equipment, don't be so quick to presume all tools are the same. I've long forgotten precisely how much I paid for my Festool Kapex, but it still brings a smile to my face every time I use it.

Pete

*Edit: A shameless plug for a good ol' Aussie business that just makes good ####! Piper Tools | Leading manufacturer of quality machine tool accessories for over 70 years Check out the runout on the centres!

Originally Posted by th62

Thanks for those words of wisdom Machtool, I shall cherish them forever.

I think your are taking the out of me. There would be 24 real members that have actully spent time here, in my workshop. . And they all understand the love of the clock.

Four years ago I visited Fiora Machinery in Cannington, a Perth suburb and encountered not one but two Schaublin 13 milling machines. I had read about them and their German counterpart, the stunning Deckel FP1 on Tony Griffiths' Lathes site. But this was the first time I had seen a Schaublin mill in person. I had never before seen a machine, any machine, of such high quality and beauty.

Both machines had been the property of the Aeronautical Research Laboratory at the Weapons Research Establishment in Salisbury, SA. They had been purchased in an auction and the purchaser intended trading both machines for a Chinese milling machine. From that time till now I always wondered why someone who had these machines would even consider letting them both slide through his fingers. Now I understand.

Phil mentions the pleasure of use. I derive pleasure from just looking at the 13 I eventually bought.

Bob. A clock lover.

Originally Posted by Pete F

*Edit: A shameless plug for a good ol' Aussie business that just makes good ####! Piper Tools | Leading manufacturer of quality machine tool accessories for over 70 years Check out the runout on the centres!

And check out the load capacity of those centres too. I bought a brand new, pine boxed Piper live centre from Canada of all places. Seldom use the thing because of the stiff preload on the bearings. My go-to centre is an Austra, probably made by Phil F during his time at Zenford Zeigler. This country once produced some nice gear.

Bob.

Originally Posted by morrisman

BTW , I can remove the LR bonnet in 30 seconds flat ,

Guess what, I used to be able to remove the Series 3 gearbox and have it on the bench in less than 30 minutes.

Do you know why? Lots of practice.

And let's not start on the electrics. Lucas was a firm who earnt their reputation for utter crap by assiduous attention to detail over many years.

Before there are any defensive comments on my driving style, I owned and drove a 1982 Mitsubishi 4WD utility that I bought new in 1982 for 29 years without breaking anything in its power train. Some of the forum members here have seen that I'm not exactly shy about loading stuff up either.

PDW

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

The problem with Chinese products is that it is very difficult to predict quality. You can get high quality made in China, and you can get crap quality. And the price is NOT always a reliable indicator. Some dealers sell crap at inflated prices. I have never come across high quality products from China at a discount price, though.

- My two cordless Metabo drills are made in China. They work well. Cost $500 each if I recall well.
- I have several Chinese digital calipers (unlicensed copies of the Swiss Silvac). I use them for rough work, one rests constantly at the bandsaw. I am happy with them for the money. No, they do NOT move as silky smooth as my Mitutoyo absolute. They come with crap alkaline batteries that barely last one month. And even proper Silver cells do not last too long. But these Chinese calipers are still excellent value for money.
- I also bought three digital calipers from Aldi, absolute crap quality, ALL 3 failed within 6 months. Mind you, I consider myself quite experienced with Chinese calipers, between lathe and mill I have 5 modified and miniaturized Chinese calipers for DRO scales, with displays removed to save room. If I say the Aldi calipers are crap, I know exactly what I am talking about. Lesson learned.
- Some 6 years ago I bought a Chinese machinist protractor. Spent hours carefully de-burring it and turning it into something useable. Yes it reads angles, but it is no joy to use. Then about one year ago I bought a Starrett protractor, old and used, with engraved previous owner name. It is like day and night, vastly superior in every respect, a pleasure to use, easy and accurate to clamp etc etc. That is a used protractor probably 20 years old, a new one would be even better. Lesson learned.
- In a shop I recently had a look a Chinese vernier caliper. Machining marks and burrs, and a jerky motion. How can you take an accurate measurement without any feeling for the force applied?
- I remember once buying a Chinese angle grinder stand. Tried to use it once. Tossed it in disgust. Yes, it was irresistibly cheap. Lesson learned.
- Then again, from time to time I also buy Chinese tools that I am happy with. Last week a set of 5 countersinks for $25, I even ent back to buy a second set. For that price fantastic value.

The chinese factories are very good at making exactly what you pay for. The problem are the dealers, that often mark up low price crap quality and make it look like the good expensive stuff. It is very difficult to tell the difference if you cannot see and hold the items. These practices ruin the reputation of everything Chinese. Then again, I remember back in the 60's everything Japanese had the reputation of inferior crap... and just 20 years later suddenly everything Japanese was premium quality. Chris




- Other experiences include Chinese spiral drills, whose spiral unwinds.

That is exactly right, could not have said it any better.

A few points to consider then,

Asia and notably the Chinese have changed the purchasing habits of millions of we home engineering types around the world.

What has happenened is that we have changed our buying habits from buying a product that we expect to last. We have gone from the purchase of reliable, long lasting but higher costing products to buying cheaper items, some that we know in our heart won't have the longevity .

In many cases we expect a once only use or at least a short use. The idea of a genuine warranty from the manufacturer the cheap goods is almost non-existent. Warranty is now, only notional, enforced on the local distributors by our local legislation. Thank goodness for that.

The old style of good standing and reputation is gone for some manufacturing companies. Many old name brands had exactly that, a name and reputation for excellent performance, reliability and longevity that came about by product development and attention to their customer feedback. Competition from other manufacturers of the similar product kept the quality and prices at a reasonable level and commercial advantage was gained only by developing a better product with improved features and reliability.

Among the few local manufacturers left, the option is to move with the times offer best available quality and rely on the quality to overcome the invariable much higher purchase price and hope the consumer is able to discern the difference.

Jump now to the present. Local manufacturers have closed due to inability to compete outright with cheaper manufacturing costs based on lower wages. There is no company name as such to protect, as there is no brand name in a lot of cases. China is a copier of products with not much R&D going on that I am aware of.

The multi nationals have to accept a share of the blame too, in exporting the manufacturing to Asia and then accepting the cheaper product which returns, an obvious example being the Vice grips brand which vary from the original not only in their place of manufacture but also in thinner chrome plating, smaller weaker rivets and springs which are thinner in wire cross section. The quality controls are being ignored, though I understand some Multi National name brand manufacturers are now placing their own staff in the manufacturing centers to oversee the quality.
That alone is a problematic exercise as getting the right people with the skills and abilities to do so must be difficult.

Our ability to choose the better-manufactured product is diminishing on a daily basis as decent manufacturers are being forced out of business.

Is it a slow running conspiracy (on goes my tin foil hat) to slowly destroy the manufacturing base of the free world. If free world countries don't have a strong manufacturing base their ability to resist China or the like, as a military force is being slowly diminished as well. The bad guys will win without firing a shot as the good guys won't have any decent hardware to shoot back with due to a collapsed economy and manufacturing base incapable of supporting the military hardware.

My engineering tool buying goes along the lines of look at tool , check origin of tool where possible, compare price against the best available.
I am fortunate in the I have most of the tools I need and being closer to retirement, realize that what I buy now is with an weekly income. What I buy is with a view that I won’t be able to easily replace it down the track. Second hand good quality tools are attractive to me.


Grahame

9 years ago I lashed out 4k on a Chinese mill. Firstly in its defence I will say it has paid for itself many times over, but not doing work that is exactly high tolerance. .25mm is more than enough on a sword blade. It had its problems straight away but I never thought it was a bad machine.....until I pulled it apart last year and saw just how poorly it had been made. I am now disgusted with the thing, and only keep it as it makes a decent drill press. Earlier this year I was very fortunate to pick up a very nice French mill dirt cheap. Even after transporting her, replacing nearly every bearing short of the spindle bearings, cleaning, New oil etc she still has cost me less than half of the Chinese mill. And I cannot begin to describe just how much better she is to use. I really cannot believe how 2 machines designed to do the same job can be so different.
Again recently I bought a Chinese bandsaw. I can day now as soon as I find a decent old machine it will go. The fit and finish is appalling, and I had to make modifications out of the box even to get it to work.
I own 2 Chinese indicators, both are far cries from my others. One never gets used now and the other only gets used as a beater.

For the record I now drive a vw, luckily not yet involved in the latest recall. A beautiful van to drive and very frugal. My last van was a Holden combo. Thirsty, uncomfortable and too small. In the 5 years I had it we spent twice as much keeping it on the road as we did my wife's car.......and it is a 1989 jaguar. As far a reputation goes one of the most unreliable cars on the road. Yes I am under the bonnet every couple of months, and it has the usual "total loss" oil system. But it is the most comfortable, smooth, quiet and driver friendly car I have been in.

Cheers,
Ee

For the last few years I have been thinking about us buying Chinese stuff then discovering that it is not as good we liked.

I think that we (at least here in OZ) are experiencing a very good standard of living that gives us access to indulge our spare time into all kinds of hobbies that are easy to pursue because we can buy tools and machinery cheaply. Really the majority will be only used now and then and create a happy time for that person. The majority will put up with a machine/tool that sort of gets the job done but there are others who want/demand better performance from the equipment.

The market that was buying top quality gear for industry may have slowed so now to stay buoyant have gone the Chinese route to survive and also cash in on the expanding hobby market. They still have to eat too.

We all look for a bargain, its human nature. We really can't complain about the problems with the not-so-good gear we are buying because we have bought the problem on ourselves.
The real shame and pity of it all is, when we want to buy an article of really good quality we find that that particular piece has been long since been off the shelves for years because it just wasn't selling.

Where are we heading?? Who knows? another facet is that local industry is slowing so that means employment will too. We have/are giving jobs to people off shore due to our spending.

I say again Where are we heading??