Thread: The Chinese experience

We all look for a bargain, its human nature.

Yes indeed, but many equate "bargain" as meaning inexpensive. As I keep repeating, none of my business, and people can do as they choose with their money. However in my experience there is a lot of truth in the mantra "Buy cheap, buy twice".

I bought a Chinese mill because after looking for a long time for a suitable second hand one I found that they were very hard to get. Maybe one day I will have the opportunity. Cheap prices for Chinese gear means that many more people can afford machines that otherwise they would only dream of.

Chambezio

The real shame and pity of it all is, when we want to buy an article of really good quality we find that that particular piece has been long since been off the shelves for years because it just wasn't selling.

Or priced out of the universe.

I say again Where are we heading??

I believe that thye answer to this problem can be found quite easily and I don't believe that this can be readily denied. The world runs on money. Mostly public listed companies. Nearly all governments around the world are controlled to some degree by companies. Not directly but try to increase the company tax by 100% and see how long before you are out of power. Public listed companies have one aim. Make money for their shareholders.

Look at the GMH situation. The federal and state governments are trying to keep them operating locally. The company would, I am sure prefer to do the manufacturing in Asia but need to do so in such a way as to maintain market share and at least appear to care about the local workforce. They would make more money if manufacturing was done in Asia. The economics of scale.

So where are we heading? To greater profits for shareholders and if you think you can change this then I believe you are mistaken. Manufacturing in Australia has been make much more expensive and less profitable by cheap imports. The best option for local manufacturers is to find a niche market or have a product that can be individually suited to the customers requirements.

"We" may be responsible for buying the cheap imports but I think that there has been some clever marketing that has influenced the population along the way.

Dean

So where are we heading? To greater profits for shareholders and if you think you can change this then I believe you are mistaken.

I wish you were right, and you are in theory. Unfortunately in practice it's a lot more complex than that, and the greatest proportion of profits are currently going to senior executive positions, either directly in salary or in bonuses, some of which are attached to short-term performance targets that may not be aligned with the long-term health of the company.

The Bank Bailout Scandal: US Treasury Approves “Executive Bonuses” for CEOs of Bailed-out Companies | Global Research

Ok, you have convinced me that most of you apparently hate anything Chinese. I know a lot of forum members own Chinese lathes, but given the obviously hostile sentiment expressed here, why would you own something that you so obviously dislike?
I've had only good luck so far and as long as what I am buying fulfils it intended purpose and represents good value for the money I will keep buying it.
Now Pete F has accused me of saying Chinese is as good as Swiss, German what have you, show me where Pete F??? For the life of me I just can't find that entry. I buy Chinese because I think it represents good value for money; and yes, it is good enough for me - I'm not making Swiss clocks, just normal everyday hobby items.

Originally Posted by th62

Now Pete F has accused me of saying Chinese is as good as Swiss, German what have you, show me where Pete F??? For the life of me I can't find that entry.

It's in the same spot that that you got the idea that we hate Chinese stuff.....it doesn't exist. I'm just of the opinion that Chinese may appear to be good value on the surface but really don't think it is.

That's great Ueee, we all have our opinions, I just don't understand the level of vehemence in everyone's replies? I only said I liked Chinese products, I didn't say I was going to join the Neo Nazis. It's not in the same place at all Ueee, it's right here in Pete F's blog, so if you look at the three words highlighted by the exclamation marks!:

Sorry I don't really see the point in this. Some people buy things simply as they were inexpensive, then spend the rest of their time trying to justify in their own minds how it is "just as good" as a quality, well madebrand name. They're not as good, know it, live it, and move on.

I don't see the word hate there.....
Opinions are all we really have. But unless you have tried both I don't think you can have a well informed opinion.

Originally Posted by Grahame Collins

China is a copier of products with not much R&D going on that I am aware of.

Grahame, yes China once was a big copier, and to some extent still is. But I can assure you, China is systematically investing BIG BIG time into all sort research. I see huge investments in highest technology, they buy the best and latest and most expensive research instruments there are. They are already leaders in solar technology, they aim to become tomorrow's leaders in Biotech......They have excellent schools, and look around how many Chinese kids are enrolled in our universities. Chinese families are only allowed one child, and parents want to make sure it gets the very best training they can afford. I have no doubt whatsoever, that 20 years from now China will be par or will have overtaken countries like Japan in nearly every respect. Of course, as the Chinese middle classes earn more, they will want to work shorter hours and enjoy their life more, just like us. That will drive prices for their products up. Remember, in the 70's Mitutoyo was just a low cost asian alternative to "good" measuring equipment. Heck, already now an apartment in Shanghai costs more than the same in Melbourne! Chris

Originally Posted by Pete F

I wish you were right, and you are in theory. Unfortunately in practice it's a lot more complex than that, and the greatest proportion of profits are currently going to senior executive positions, either directly in salary or in bonuses, some of which are attached to short-term performance targets that may not be aligned with the long-term health of the company.

The Bank Bailout Scandal: US Treasury Approves “Executive Bonuses” for CEOs of Bailed-out Companies | Global Research

Pete, it is all of us. Making money with money. Your superannuation fund is making money with money. What we forget is, that at the bottom of the rank, "someone" invariably has to work for these profits. As long as that "someone" is someone else in a far away country, we accept it. Only as the bean counters target our own job, it starts hurting.

There is an initiative running up right now in Switzerland. It demands, that the highest wage package in a company cannot exceed 12 times the lowest wage paid by that same company. I feel somehow attracted to the idea.....
1:12 initiative: Glencore head considers taking company abroad - swissinfo.ch

Chris

Geez mate I thought I was unpopular, you should have read my thread first, forearmed is forewarned. Who would have thought saying you liked Chinese products would raise such ire. You are obviously multi skilled like me you can write and people off at the same time. Perhaps there is a rule for this forum we aren’t aware of warning that opinions that don’t sit well with the majority are not welcome. I think I'll stay out of this one, too much vitriol.

Also, let's not forget that the Chinese culture is one of the oldest in the world and many things we take for granted today were originally invented in China.

They had a thriving culture and science when our forefathers still lived in caves or were wandering nomads in Europe.

The thing that most people don't realise is the amount of money invested by the Chinese Government in manufacturing infrastructure, on a scale never matched by any Western Government. They also invest heavily in research and development and are willing to develop and industry on the results of that research and development.

Put that together with obvious Chinese ambition and a will to achieve and the world is their oyster.

This contrasts with some of the things developed in this country, in our own Govt establishments, and never developed to the stage where we as a nation have benefited from that.

[QUOTE I think I'll stay out of this one, too much vitriol.[/QUOTE]

Not really. This is mild compared to some chat room antics

I think the point is being missed by a few - I don't see the OP saying Chinese stuff is as well made or nice to use as much more expensive (if we buy new) brand name stuff.

The OP is only saying (as I read it) that Chinese stuff can be plenty accurate enough for his/her hobby and reasonable value for the amount of use it gets. I fully agree.

As I said, I have brand name and Chinese stuff (reasonable quality CTC tools asian stuff) and they both do the job quite nicely.

Let's not forget that if it wasn't for the Asian connection many people in this forum would never have never joined, or taken up this activity.

So just sh#t canning Asian stuff in general is quite narrow minded IMHO.

So go ahead and flame me.

Rob

Originally Posted by gngh

Geez mate I thought I was unpopular, you should have read my thread first, forearmed is forewarned. Who would have thought saying you liked Chinese products would raise such ire. You are obviously multi skilled like me you can write and people off at the same time. Perhaps there is a rule for this forum we aren’t aware of warning that opinions that don’t sit well with the majority are not welcome. I think I'll stay out of this one, too much vitriol.

So apparently you are allowed to have your opinions but we are not?
I'm out of this one, I tried to make it clear why I have the opinions I have but its seems to be not taken the way it was intended.

Originally Posted by th62

Ok, you have convinced me that most of you apparently hate anything Chinese.

Well, if you're convinced of that, it's because you have a reading comprehension problem.

Saying that any tool is 'good enough for me' is meaningless unless you also say to what level of accuracy you're working to.

I have a Chinese made H/V bandsaw. It's a POS basically but it cuts steel within the allowable (mine) tolerance for accuracy. A better one might cost (new) 10X as much. I don't need that level of accuracy. This one suits my simple needs.

OTOH if I buy a DTI graduated to 0.01mm I expect it to work to that level. I don't accept that plus or minus 0.01mm on that is good enough.

Drop another order of magnitude to 0.001mm, which is where some of the better equipped & skilled people on this forum are working (which does not include me BTW), and you might see why a DTI that cannot reliably and repeatably function at that level is a piece of junk, no matter how cheap the initial price or what country of origin. Pete F's comments WRT the Aldi digital calipers are a classic example - they are junk because they cannot do what they are designed to do and sold as capable of doing. He is 100% correct.

I have quite a lot of made in China tooling. I particularly like my Chinese manufacture MIG welder. I've burnt over 200kg of steel wire and another 30 kg more or less of 316 and 309 wire. It works so much better than my old, 415V 3 phase MIG welder that there's no comparison.

Machine tools though - no way I'd trade my old B/port mill for a new H&F special of the same theoretical work envelope regardless of price - and keep in mind that I regard a B/port as a soggy noodle of a machine, really. If you really want to do accurate and repeatable work in a reasonable time frame, something like Ueee's French made mill is the way to go.

A Chinese equivalent in rigidity etc *is* available, but now we're talking $20K and up. Not silly hobby money - which is why these discussions are fun if you like flame wars, but totally pointless because those of us with old industrial iron can't help comparing its capability with new Chinese iron.

I'd rather a H&F 'special' lathe or mill over no lathe or mill and I know that's a situation lots of people face.

So carry on - I'm happy to throw fuel on the fire.

PDW