Thread: The Chinese experience

Well Ueee, this isn’t my thread, I haven’t voiced an opinion one way or another on this thread. I only said my ‘brother in preferences’ should have read my thread first. Given the level of antipathy expressed by the majority here so far, I also suggested he must be multi skilled, as I am. So don’t leave on my account, stay, enjoy, most seem to be having a ball. I will leave instead, that should make more than a few happy.

Originally Posted by PDW

I have a Chinese made H/V bandsaw. It's a POS basically but it cuts steel within the allowable (mine) tolerance for accuracy. A better one might cost (new) 10X as much. I don't need that level of accuracy. This one suits my simple needs.

OTOH if I buy a DTI graduated to 0.01mm I expect it to work to that level. I don't accept that plus or minus 0.01mm on that is good enough.

Drop another order of magnitude to 0.001mm, which is where some of the better equipped & skilled people on this forum are working (which does not include me BTW), and you might see why a DTI that cannot reliably and repeatably function at that level is a piece of junk, no matter how cheap the initial price or what country of origin. Pete F's comments WRT the Aldi digital calipers are a classic example - they are junk because they cannot do what they are designed to do and sold as capable of doing. He is 100% correct.

PDW

That encapsulates most of the arguments fairly well. It is a fitness for purpose type situation.

The downside to the cheap and nasty- the items not performing to specs claimed-the manufacturers don't give a crap.
Attitude - we make so many of them and so cheap you have to put up with a few crook ones, the shop will give you a new one.-that,s what pizzes us off.

That works ok for a dial indicator, but how many distributors will pay freight to and fro on a crook lathe. For the owner the transport cost( borne by the owner-not seller) may exceed the repair cost.


Discussions like this one are quite useful for helping new blokes to form judgements on what they might buy. I thank all for contributing.

Grahame

Personally I look back at what previous generations have been able to afford and thank the Master Builder that today mills and lathes are available on such a cheap price that even teenagers are able to buy something..

Lets go back 30 years and see what was available for what price in the hobby machine tool market...

What sir wants to buy a milling machine but sir only earns the average wage... May I direct sir to the aisle that contains the files and cold chisels...

If I was born in the time of my parents generation there is no way in hell I would have the workshop that I have today...

I am not going to be critical of Chinese machine tools, they make possible what in the past was the impossible for the average hobbyist.

From here

Page Title

It is interesting to note that the firm's founder, Mr. F.W. Hercus, wrote to the British press in 1954 (but without revealing who he was) and outlined Customs' requirements for immigrants who took their own model-engineering machine tools with them to Australia. He also pointed out that, whilst it took sixteen weeks' work in England to buy a Model C South Bend, in Australia an "equally good" copy could be bought with just ten weeks' wages.

Ten weeks wages in Australia on the median wage is $11 000...

Look at what you can buy in the machine tool range these days for $11 000..

I can buy a decent lathe and a decent milling machine.. Chinese of course, but certainly far better then a Hercus...

The old adage "We have never had it so good" really rings true for metal work hobbyists today....

Better than a Hercus? that should get a few bites.

Originally Posted by th62

Better than a Hercus? that should get a few bites.

I was just thinking the same thing lol.

Phil

You know, I couldn't care less if everyone thought their Chinese lathe ran rings around my 44 year old Hercus.

No tears here Boys.

BT

Originally Posted by Pete F

I wish you were right, and you are in theory. Unfortunately in practice it's a lot more complex than that, and the greatest proportion of profits are currently going to senior executive positions, either directly in salary or in bonuses, some of which are attached to short-term performance targets that may not be aligned with the long-term health of the company.

The Bank Bailout Scandal: US Treasury Approves “Executive Bonuses” for CEOs of Bailed-out Companies | Global Research

Agreed. But that does not change my statement, only changes the direction slightly and I do not think that this forum is the place for such in depth financial discussions.

Dean

Originally Posted by Pete F

I wish you were right, and you are in theory. Unfortunately in practice it's a lot more complex than that, and the greatest proportion of profits are currently going to senior executive positions, either directly in salary or in bonuses, some of which are attached to short-term performance targets that may not be aligned with the long-term health of the company.

The Bank Bailout Scandal: US Treasury Approves “Executive Bonuses” for CEOs of Bailed-out Companies | Global Research

In my younger years I worked for a large Australian icon. The place a small wheel in the ''big cog'' employed about 70-75 staff.One of the junior pay clerks who had a bit of a soft spot for me gave me some privied insight to the pay roll structure of the place.
From the lowly cleaner to the general Manager the rate of pay from highest to lowest.There was about 100-125 dollars difference.admittedly the ''boss had a company car and some other perks ,but no where near what we are seeing now ,with C E O's earning so much it is disgustingly hideous the pay horizon now. Really is a C E O worth that much??The mind boggles! Share holders driving and calling for profit profit,honestly I ask the question. Why are they demanding a high price and allowing the real skill in the organisation eventually face social welfare. John.

Originally Posted by Anorak Bob

You know, I couldn't care less if everyone thought their Chinese lathe ran rings around my 44 year old Hercus.

No tears here Boys.

BT

Ouch Bob!
It's funny, I was always taught that it was the bloke standing in front of the lathe, not the lathe that produced a good (or otherwise) job .


Phil

Originally Posted by Steamwhisperer

Ouch Bob!
It's funny, I was always taught that it was the bloke standing in front of the lathe, not the lathe that produced a good (or otherwise) job .


Phil

Not far from here up to about 10yrs ago there were old machine tools,ancient driven by equally ancient ''old crusties'' who had used the same machine year in year out punching out accurate work.The lathes are now embracing us as ''Great Walls or some thing else Hyundai maybe.The old crusties ''boot hill''.Same company now imports their products ''ckd'' from India. The crates alone are works of art,end up light up material for the Maldon railway loco boilers.Some stuff still made there in house but not as it was in it's industrial boom time days.
Just another local icon that has slipped into the hands of bean counters.

Originally Posted by Steamwhisperer

Ouch Bob!
It's funny, I was always taught that it was the bloke standing in front of the lathe, not the lathe that produced a good (or otherwise) job .


Phil

When I worked for JP Engineering they had a lot of very old machines. If someone complained about this to the boss he said that anyone can get good result with new machines, but it takes a good machinist to produce good results from old machines.

Dean

Originally Posted by Steamwhisperer

Ouch Bob!

Phil

The thing is Phil, the little Hercus works well enough for me. If I didn't have the Hercus I probably would have an even piddlier Myford.

I had ventured out to Fiora Machinery 11 years ago just to look at their range of cheap Taiwanese (could have been Chinese?) lathes. Back then I was basically a woodie, no, more a weekend pretend builder's labourer. I hadn't used a lathe since my student days at WAIT. Came home with my first Hercus. I guess it was a romantic attraction, I'd used the same lathe in high school. Strangely I had no fondness for metalwork back then but the lathe I bought had a substantiality that I felt was absent on the cheap new lathes. It possessed a curvaceousness akin to some of my wood working tools which added to the appeal. That lathe turned out to be quite worn ( a gentle description ). It was an ex school machine and bore the scars of school boy abuse. The green lathe is my third Hercus.

Detractors abound. I'm beyond caring.

BT

Originally Posted by th62

Better than a Hercus?

For new money yes.... At the end of the production run a Hercus was over $10 000 new, and what did you get? Milled cross slide ways, not even ground, a single leadscrew that did double duty as a feed screw as well... A threaded spindle nose rather then a camlock.. A tailstock that locks the quill by tightening up a split in the bore

They are good machines, but fairly antiquated in design...

compared to say this

SM-1340A. Centre Lathe. Steelmaster. 1000mm Centres, 330mm Swing, 38mm Bore.. 2 Axis DRO. - Buy Workshop Equipment & Machinery Online | Asset Plant & Machinery

Originally Posted by .RC.

For new money yes.... At the end of the production run a Hercus was over $10 000 new, and what did you get? Milled cross slide ways, not even ground, a single leadscrew that did double duty as a feed screw as well... A threaded spindle nose rather then a camlock.. A tailstock that locks the quill by tightening up a split in the bore

They are good machines, but fairly antiquated in design...

compared to say this

SM-1340A. Centre Lathe. Steelmaster. 1000mm Centres, 330mm Swing, 38mm Bore.. 2 Axis DRO. - Buy Workshop Equipment & Machinery Online | Asset Plant & Machinery

At the time RC, it would have been the antiquated design that sucked me in. I wasn't having any of that squared off stuff. My, doesn't taste change?

A old teaser for Ray.