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Thread: Clarifying 3ph Motor connections
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27th December 2013, 12:41 PM #16
Hi Dean,
Can you post a picture of the motor name plate, (I see that Bill has already asked, can't hurt to ask again ) and a picture of the motor terminal block.
How far away from Harty are you? he or Jayson would be able to give you some advice on your best options.
As Chris has said, it sounds like your VFD is undersized for the motor. That might be a good place to start.
Regards
Ray
PS I would have contributed to this thread earlier, but the cricket intervened..
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27th December 2013 12:41 PM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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27th December 2013, 01:37 PM #17SENIOR MEMBER
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I suggest you get yourself a copy of Rosenberg. Its regarded as the Bible for electric motors.
You can get it off ebay but is still quite expensive. I reckon its worth it.
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27th December 2013, 02:16 PM #18
Thanks to everyone for the assistance.
Just one correction from OP. VFD is 4.0kw not 4.5 kw.
BaronJ.
A bit more detail to cement the knowledge.
Michael.
Due to the limited space available for the motor etc I think this will be what will happen if I cannot use this motor as it is.
Alan.
Thanks for considering my position re location. A lot of people don't understand the difficulties we face living in the bush. Not That I would change it for anything except daisies.
call into a nearby factory that has an on-site electrician who is experienced in motor control gear. Carrying a slab in the boot could be beneficial.
Chris.
This was the biggest RFD available in my price range at the time. Bigger available now tho. I seriously doubt I will ever need 7.5 HP. I think this lathe is overpowered. My Nuttall is only fractionally smaller and it came with a 3 HP motor although it has a clutch. The RFD should compensate for the lack here plus over 2 HP more available power.
But please be aware that there may be safety concerns using a VFD for grinders.
Have a look under the connection box cover.
A few things to note- I'm sure braking won't be a problem as the CY has a foot brake, and the antrac has 3.75hp in low speed, this is enough to take 3mm DOC's at .25mm/rev, with a negative rake tool. More than enough for the sort of things we do!
My suggestion was to hook the VFD up to one of the speeds, which one i'm not sure, and run it on 240v but in star. I would think even if the motor power is halved it should have plenty of go.
Cheers,
Ewan
Ew
It is my hope that I can connect it as you suggest. I am happy to go with half power for now and I doubt I will need more than this. How much power will I get tho is the question?
Can a VFD be used with both star and delta? I was under the impression delta was the way to go.
WCD.
Photos not good due to the location of the plate. Mostly get blurs. Info as follows.
THREE PHASE MULTISPEED POLE CHANGING INDUCTION MOTORS. (Heading on top of data section. May be just a company description. Chinese writing above it. Company name?)
TYPE D132M-8/4 (Poles?)_____ No. 1583________ --------KW
3.75/7.5 HP ________________ 730/1446r/min ___CLASS B S1 "B" may be symbol?
CONN ∆/YY ________________ 50 Hz ___________DATE --------I gave up looking for the delta symbol.I have forgotten the ANSI Codes. I copied BobL's. What did you use Bob? "-----" Blank.
This is the best pic I could get.
Motor Name Plate.jpg
Stuart.
I assume your VSD has 240V 3 phase output?
DeanLast edited by Oldneweng; 27th December 2013 at 02:31 PM. Reason: Typing
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27th December 2013, 02:28 PM #19
Terminal Block? Now that I can do. Motor Name Plate done.
Motor Terminal Block.jpg
Harty? 140km but he is probably sick of the sight of me.
Dean
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27th December 2013, 02:34 PM #20
Chris.
So far all correct for a small horsepower single speed 3ph motor
Dean
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27th December 2013, 03:26 PM #21.
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It depends on what type of computer you are using (I'm using a Mac so it's "Option J"
With a PC, to get the Greek letters it's usually "Alt and then a number" but I don't think there is one for upper case delta.
Maybe a PC user can pitch in here.
Did you look on the underneath of the terminal block cover.
A couple of motors I have show the ∆ - Y conversion either stamped into the metal or on a piece of paper glued in place - like this.
PLEASE NOTE: DO NOT USE THIS CONNECTION PATTERN AS BEING APPLICABLE TO YOUR MOTOR
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27th December 2013, 03:36 PM #22
Hi Dean,
It looks like 4 pole / 8 pole switched, I'd say it's not easily possible to convert to 240V 3 phase operation, without rewinding. But... there might be less than ideal ways of getting what you want....
As I see it your options are..
1. Have the motor rewound. That's going to be expensive and time consuming.
2. Sell that motor and get another more suitable. That's not a solution, unless you do something about the undersized VFD... if you kept the VFD then you'd get a 3HP 4 pole that can be wired for 240 (delta) ... you'd need to get the same frame size and shaft dimensions.. still not cheap..
3. Do what Ewan suggested, pick a speed, and run the existing motor at half voltage from a VFD You'd only have roughly 1/4 of the horsepower, but seeing as the motor is fairly big for a hobby lathe, you'd still have a usefull machine, and keeping the original motor might help with resale value.
4. Get 3 phase 415V power installed.
Also, 7.5HP is getting to be too big for single phase operation, you'd be looking at a 240V 25A or better supply, and permanently wired.. derating it to 2 or 3 HP you can still get away with a 250V 15A circuit.
So... sorry no good answer, but if you can live with reduced power then there are options that will work.
Regards
Ray
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27th December 2013, 03:50 PM #23GOLD MEMBER
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Hi Ray,
If you're going to run the motor wired for 415V on 240V why not keep the two speeds? I doubt you'd get the speed range you're after if you pick one speed. In this case it would also solve the undersize VSD issue.
I know Simon tried this and it didnt work but the motor he was using was 0.6kW/0.8kW, there was only one horse to start with, cutting two legs off didnt so work well
Stuart
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27th December 2013, 03:54 PM #24Pink 10EE owner
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There can be unforeseen problems with doing that... The derated motor may not have very much power at the spindle by the time all the gearbox losses are taken into acount...
I once had a 13" Nuttall that was originally powered by a 5hp motor.... I installed a 3hp motor in it.... it was adequate for slow speeds, but would not get to even 1000rpm without blowing the fuse...Light red, the colour of choice for the discerning man.
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27th December 2013, 05:02 PM #254. Get 3 phase 415V power installed.
A 3ph generator would be a tiny fraction of that cost tho!
Dean
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27th December 2013, 05:19 PM #26
Ray.
Also, 7.5HP is getting to be too big for single phase operation, you'd be looking at a 240V 25A or better supply, and permanently wired.. derating it to 2 or 3 HP you can still get away with a 250V 15A circuit.
The figure of 1/4 HP has come up. I was hoping it would not. I remember a mate telling me a 3ph motor could be run on single phase but only at 1/4 power output. I was hoping the VFD would compensate for this to some degree. I would accept 1/2 power but any less than that would be potentially inadequate.
BobL.
I will go and have a look for the cover. It will be out there somewhere? Naughty I know but there is no power cable to connect it let alone a socket for it so I think it is safe enough. Spiders wasps etc are another matter.
Hugh.
I checked the continuity on the wires but forget to mention it before. I obtained readings from every wire pair I checked. I made sure to check there was no connections at the switch end.
Dean
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27th December 2013, 05:47 PM #27
BobL.
Mac? You're no help. I tried a number of options from the internut but had no success. I either got another type of arrow, the letter "r" or nothing at all. Got tired of looking. I copied yours so you have been a bit of a help.
Terminal block cover. Terrible picture. Shiny silver sticker and I think the camera had trouble focussing. It is at least readable.
Motor Terminal Block Cover.jpg
Dean
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27th December 2013, 06:03 PM #28Pink 10EE owner
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27th December 2013, 06:04 PM #29Banned
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Delta
For PC on forum it should be
& Delta ; (without the spaces).
M = Δ T
Or NOT!
I think its possible that the particular forum itself has to have HTML scripting enabled by the mods for the codes to work....
Coz that exact script renders a Delta symbol on this forum in this thread
https://www.woodworkforums.com/f137/n...73/index2.html
But not here in this forum go figure!
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27th December 2013, 06:45 PM #30
farms
Around here, I think a lot of the dairy farms use 2 phase 480 Volts - but that doesn't help you
The HV distribution line here is 22 Kv , it wanders around the hills and dales forever it seems .
When looking to buy older machinery, I always look at the motor mount and see if it it easy to replace the motor with a modern equivalent . I dont like machines with the motor mount in a awkward place , like up high on the headstock of a lathe with a casting made to suit that motor and nothing else
Mike
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