Thread: Eldorado!

Hi WCD,

Welcome to the world of Deckel ownership, with all it's attendant heartaches and joy.

Is this the machine you bought with Azz? Sounds like a fairly late model.

I am hoping to get this finalised in the next two weeks, but I am in no rush. Keep in mind I am in Nth Qld so if you want big heavy stuff there will be freight costs from me to you. By all means give me your list and I'll see if this guy has it for you. Also you will need to pay him if you buy anything. I'm only providing shipping space inside my tooling cabinet.

Cheers

The Beryl Bloke

Originally Posted by WCD

Well, I have just acquired an FP1 Mk3 with SK40 tapers.
It just arrived yesterday and I have had no time to post anything yet, but here's one photo.IMG_8424 small1.jpg
There is very limited tooling with it and I do not have a proper list yet - hopefully tomorrow - but I will be looking for quite a few things.
Is there a tight timeframe?
Cheers,
Bill

bill it arrived no problem. I seem to remember its in fantastic order.is it in its spot yet?

Originally Posted by WCD

Well, I have just acquired an FP1 Mk3 with SK40 tapers.
It just arrived yesterday and I have had no time to post anything yet, but here's one photo.IMG_8424 small1.jpg
There is very limited tooling with it and I do not have a proper list yet - hopefully tomorrow - but I will be looking for quite a few things.
Is there a tight timeframe?
Cheers,
Bill

I have a fair amount of SK40, ISO 40 (M16) and Cat 40 (5/8-11) tooling. Some duplicates. Not sure what the deal is with these locking rings needed for SK40 is because all my tooling fits into & locks to the spindle fine, the hassle is in the different types of ends. That is a PITA, need adaptors or different drawbars to suit. Only a one-off hassle though. I used M16 coupling nuts as the basis for some adaptors.

Anyway if you list what you need then you might find some of us can either fill some holes or suggest ways you can do so.

I thought all the FP1 machines had a 4 MT so getting one with a 40 taper is a real bonus IMO.

PDW

Originally Posted by PDW

Just the arbor or the face mill head as well? In which case, what TCT tips does the face mill take? I already have 3" to 6" TCT face mills on 40 taper arbors so no real need but if the price was right....

PDW

well free would be about right.
it had a 6" sutton hhs cutter on it as yet unused.
a bit old fashioned for some. i was thinking sell the arbor
but easy come easy go. the cutter and arbor cost me $50,
you seem to have a few maybe the newest deckel club
recruit could put it to some use.

Originally Posted by Theberylbloke

Is this the machine you bought with Azz? Sounds like a fairly late model.

Yes it is. From what I can make out it is a Mk 3 version which started around 1970 or a bit before.
It seems the standard taper for these was SK40.

I am still getting together my ideas for tooling etc, and weighing this up against the (now heavily depleted) budget and also the list of repair items such as the way covers.
Cheers,
Bill

Originally Posted by azzrock

....is it in its spot yet?

Aaron,
Not yet. Still sitting on the step of the shed while I work out how to drag it inside.
But I better not sidetrack this thread too much - will post photos separately.
Cheers,
Bill

Originally Posted by PDW

I have a fair amount of SK40, ISO 40 (M16) and Cat 40 (5/8-11) tooling. Some duplicates. Not sure what the deal is with these locking rings needed for SK40 is because all my tooling fits into & locks to the spindle fine, the hassle is in the different types of ends. That is a PITA, need adaptors or different drawbars to suit. Only a one-off hassle though. I used M16 coupling nuts as the basis for some adaptors.

Anyway if you list what you need then you might find some of us can either fill some holes or suggest ways you can do so.

I thought all the FP1 machines had a 4 MT so getting one with a 40 taper is a real bonus IMO.

PDW

Thanks PDW.

Re the drive rings, I'm a bit confused about these: SK40, ISO 40 and BT40 tooling online does not always show drive lugs as being supplied, and maybe that's where the drive rings come in, or maybe the drive rings are in some way preferable to lugs on the tooling - better balance maybe (?), though that would be debatable at the speeds of the FP1.

I do have:
- 40 taper adapters for Deckel collets and MT3 shank tools, and
- a single 40 taper collet*.
Neither the adapters or (obviously) the collet have drive slots. It does not seem like a good idea to have tooling in the spindle taper without positive drive, but maybe it is because the intent with the collets is to hold small diameter (= relatively low torque requirement) cutting tools, or maybe the collets were intended for work holding, not cutting tools. Any thoughts on that?

*While the SK40 taper collets have the advantage of a large holding diameter than the standard Deckel collets, I never did like the idea of a collet direct in the spindle taper because there must be some wear over time.

Cheers,
Bill

Originally Posted by azzrock

well free would be about right.
it had a 6" sutton hhs cutter on it as yet unused.
a bit old fashioned for some. i was thinking sell the arbor
but easy come easy go. the cutter and arbor cost me $50,
you seem to have a few maybe the newest deckel club
recruit could put it to some use.

Yeah, I'm pretty well supplied with 40 taper shank tooling so I have no need for another one. Got some I don't need already.

As a matter of interest, I have a number of those 'old fashioned' HSS inserted tooth face mills. Bought them cheap as they're easy to resharpen with a T&C grinder as opposed to swapping out TC tips.

PDW

Originally Posted by WCD

Thanks PDW.

Re the drive rings, I'm a bit confused about these: SK40, ISO 40 and BT40 tooling online does not always show drive lugs as being supplied, and maybe that's where the drive rings come in, or maybe the drive rings are in some way preferable to lugs on the tooling - better balance maybe (?), though that would be debatable at the speeds of the FP1.

*NONE* of my tooling has drive lugs - the drive lugs are on the spindle nose, the tooling has slots to engage and take drive torque. That's what I find confusing about this topic when it comes to discussions of SK40 tooling & Deckel spindle noses. My machine isn't a Deckel, it's a Romanian sort of clone so maybe there's a difference. I do have a couple of those adaptors but they look like they're only useful if you unbolt the drive lugs from the spindle nose and I can't see why you'd do that.

As for speeds I can say with great confidence that this isn't an issue. The speeds that BT40 tooling reach in CNC mills is quite amazing and the arbors are balanced accordingly.

Originally Posted by WCD

I do have:
- 40 taper adapters for Deckel collets and MT3 shank tools, and
- a single 40 taper collet*.
Neither the adapters or (obviously) the collet have drive slots. It does not seem like a good idea to have tooling in the spindle taper without positive drive, but maybe it is because the intent with the collets is to hold small diameter (= relatively low torque requirement) cutting tools, or maybe the collets were intended for work holding, not cutting tools. Any thoughts on that?

*While the SK40 taper collets have the advantage of a large holding diameter than the standard Deckel collets, I never did like the idea of a collet direct in the spindle taper because there must be some wear over time.

Cheers,
Bill

I recently bought one of these

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI....=1102079628018

and am thinking about buying one of these.
Techniks TE 22253s CAT40 ER32 Collet Chuck Super Rigid Tool Holder 1 10" Length | eBay

I already have a 40 taper ER32 collet chuck but it's amazing just how fast your Z axis space vanishes when you start stacking tooling. I recently nearly ran out on my B/port by the time I put the workpiece in a 4 jaw chuck on a rotary table then a drill bit in the spindle.

The main advantage of direct mount collets is saving on Z space though in theory there should be somewhat better balance, reduction in possible runout and increased rigidity. Shrug. I still prefer to use an ER32 collet chuck in my B/port rather than the R8 collets because it's easer/faster to swap tooling.

When I get a moment I'll see what tooling I have in duplicate. I know I have a 40-MT3 adaptor and a 40-30 adaptor spare, there might be others. The 40-30 would only be useful if you already had 30 taper tooling.

PDW

Hi PDW and others,

The Deckels do not have the drive lugs on the spindle nose that you have described as being present on your Romanian mill. Thus the Deckels have drive rings to provide the same function as your lugs.

Originally Posted by PDW

*NONE* of my tooling has drive lugs - the drive lugs are on the spindle nose, the tooling has slots to engage and take drive torque. That's what I find confusing about this topic when it comes to discussions of SK40 tooling & Deckel spindle noses. My machine isn't a Deckel, it's a Romanian sort of clone so maybe there's a difference. I do have a couple of those adaptors but they look like they're only useful if you unbolt the drive lugs from the spindle nose and I can't see why you'd do that.

and am thinking about buying one of these.
Techniks TE 22253s CAT40 ER32 Collet Chuck Super Rigid Tool Holder 1 10" Length | eBay


PDW

I have one of those very short Techniks ER32 collet chucks on order from "Hemly Tool". I have bought it specifically to run a Tormach fly cutter in. I figure the lop sided load of a fly cutter deserves as much rigidity and/or least tool stick out as possible.

Bill,

If you are not aware then keep in mind that all these "40" taper tools, be they SK40, Cat 40, ISO 40, BT40 etc, have the same physical taper. The devil is in the detail. They have different threads for the drawbar for example. Often different arrangements for Automatic Tool Changers on CNC (this doesn't affect us as most of us don't run CNC machines) etc. CAT 40 tooling is designed to only fit in one direction in the spindle. Appears to fit Deckels ok. Often the newer tooling is designed for CNC machines and balanced for use to 18,000 rpm or higher.

It is not a good idea to run without a drive ring. Doing so risks the tooling turning in the spindle and scoring the bore of the spindle.

If you are worried about wear between collet and spindle, you can always lightly lubricate the exterior of the collet before insertion. Doing so will allow the drawbar to pull the collet tighter and consequently hold your cutting tool tighter. This reduces the risk of the cutter pulling out of the collet. The interface between collet and cutting tool needs to be un-lubricated.

Cheers

The Beryl Bloke

Thanks The Beryl Bloke (..TBB ?), I have been looking at a lot of info on '40' tapers and had more or less arrived at the same point, but it is good to have a solid opinion.

Lubrication between collet and spindle is a good idea, and I would like some Deckel collets and SK40 collets for situations needing a compact setup.

I have compiled a short list for your Deckel supplier:

Drive rings (2)
SK40 Collets preferred minimum set: 16, 20 and 25 mm
Deckel collets ("U2" with 20 mm shank) preferred minimum set: 6, 8, 10 and 12 mm
Drill chuck for SK 40*
Adjustable boring head for SK40 (a boring and facing head is almost certainly out of reach financially ATM)
* (not specific to Deckel - maybe it's better to go to CTC, and buy conversion pull studs as necessary)

Regards,
Bill

Originally Posted by WCD

Thanks The Beryl Bloke (..TBB ?), I have been looking at a lot of info on '40' tapers and had more or less arrived at the same point, but it is good to have a solid opinion.

Lubrication between collet and spindle is a good idea, and I would like some Deckel collets and SK40 collets for situations needing a compact setup.

I have compiled a short list for your Deckel supplier:

Drive rings (2)
SK40 Collets preferred minimum set: 16, 20 and 25 mm
Deckel collets ("U2" with 20 mm shank) preferred minimum set: 6, 8, 10 and 12 mm
Drill chuck for SK 40*
Adjustable boring head for SK40 (a boring and facing head is almost certainly out of reach financially ATM)
* (not specific to Deckel - maybe it's better to go to CTC, and buy conversion pull studs as necessary)




Regards,

Bill

ive noticed some nice boring heads on ubay.de

aaron

Originally Posted by Theberylbloke

If you are not aware then keep in mind that all these "40" taper tools, be they SK40, Cat 40, ISO 40, BT40 etc, have the same physical taper. The devil is in the detail. They have different threads for the drawbar for example.

Ha ha ha. You are not wrong. I have made adaptors to go from the external M20 buttress thread to M16, M16 female to M16 male, 5/8-11 female to M16 male etc etc. PITA but you only have to do it once and M16 coupling nuts for all thread are readily available & cheap. I just used my TIG to weld various combinations together, mainly because the horizontal spindle has a captive drawbar with an M16 male thread....

The only thing really standard about 40 taper tooling is the taper. At least it's all common with my Victoria U2 mill (which was one of the points of the exercise).

I'll be interested in hearing how you like that minimal overhang ER32 collet chucks. The drill chuck I referenced is very nice, I'm happy with it.

I have a plan in train to increase Z axis travel on my machine. As the ducks aren't even hatched yet let alone lined up, no point in going into any detail, but if it works, it'd work for the FP1 machines as well.

PDW

Hi Bill,

I'll pass this along and see what he says. He is away for a few days so I hope you are not in any hurry.

There are a few drive rings in the tooling cabinet, looks like a complete set of the 20mm shank collets in there as well (which don't interest me ) so should be good on those. The part set of SK40 collets I'm claiming so will ask him if he has another set, likewise a drill chuck and boring head.

The native Deckel drawbar thread is a buttress thread. I think the exact terminology is S20, the "20" being the diameter. Your choice is to change the drawbar thread or use an adapter as per PDW. I've tried to make it easy on myself. I have elected to keep the S20 drawbar and use adapter bolts. Ideally I am only going to use Deckel tooling or CAT 40 tooling. That means I only need one style of adapter bolt to go from the CAT 40 5/8" 11TPI to S20. The adapter bolts are not cheap, about $100 per 5.

5 Anzugsbolzen S20X2 auf 5 8 11 Zoll Neu Z B FÜR Deckel Fräsmaschine | eBay

You might find these cheaper somewhere else, I have not really looked.

P.S. Ray G has referred to me as "BB", unsure whether I should have elected to claim the nickname "Deckel Diehard" or similar

Originally Posted by WCD

Thanks The Beryl Bloke (..TBB ?), I have been looking at a lot of info on '40' tapers and had more or less arrived at the same point, but it is good to have a solid opinion.

Lubrication between collet and spindle is a good idea, and I would like some Deckel collets and SK40 collets for situations needing a compact setup.

I have compiled a short list for your Deckel supplier:

Drive rings (2)
SK40 Collets preferred minimum set: 16, 20 and 25 mm
Deckel collets ("U2" with 20 mm shank) preferred minimum set: 6, 8, 10 and 12 mm
Drill chuck for SK 40*
Adjustable boring head for SK40 (a boring and facing head is almost certainly out of reach financially ATM)
* (not specific to Deckel - maybe it's better to go to CTC, and buy conversion pull studs as necessary)

Regards,
Bill

PDW,

Available for the FP1, in exchange for large amounts of folding stuff (a normal requirement for anything Deckel), is an intermediate component that goes between the normal "y" axis ways and the head, has some gears and stuff in it to transfer the drive thrive it as well. Below is a shot of an LK grinder with what I think is this component, between the grinding head and the "Y" axis ways (um.. that'd be the slightly pudgy looking green bit... in the middle Probably you have seen one of these around and elected to keep your folding stuff in your possession!

LK grinder.jpg

Cheers

The Beryl Bloke