Thread: Electrolysis - A Superior Cleaning Process

Electrolysis is very interesting, i had 3 hand planes i wanted to de-rust but i didnt have a car battery charger to use. While i was looking for one i also came across this product

Evapo-Rust Australia Home Page

a solution that you soak the metal in over a day or two. Then the rust just washes away. Very effective stuff. I should de-rust another piece and post a WIP

Originally Posted by delbs

Electrolysis is very interesting, i had 3 hand planes i wanted to de-rust but i didnt have a car battery charger to use. While i was looking for one i also came across this product

Evapo-Rust Australia Home Page

a solution that you soak the metal in over a day or two. Then the rust just washes away. Very effective stuff. I should de-rust another piece and post a WIP

Interested to see that WIP. What is the active ingredient in the product?

Evapo-Rust™ is the only chemistry in the world employing selective chelation for rust removal. Evapo-Rust™ is sewerable in neat form and works at a pH ranging from 6 delivered to 7 as a spent solution.

Chelation is I believe in Molasses, I wonder if the chelator is the same and just more refined??

Light rust is removed in as little as 5 to 30 minutes. Medium rust up to 6 hours, and heavy rust takes up to 24 hours.

Certainly claims to work faster than molasses which they say usually takes 1-4 weeks. at a 1:9 ratio.

The chelator is too expensive to use large quantities in the finished product. An organic chemical that easily loses sulfur to form ferric sulfate was added to remove iron from the iron-chelator complex. This allows the chelator to remove more iron from iron oxide. The sulfur-bearing compound is much less expensive than the chelator and makes Evapo-Rust™ economical to use.Evapo-Rust™ has a chemical carrying capacity of 300grams of pure, dry rust per 5 litres.

The farm grade molasses also has sulphur in it.

The hydrogen embrittlement possibilities in ordinary home electrolysis is a complete phurphy.
Hydrogen embrittlement requires either very high temperatures or pressures or both, neither of which are happening in ordinary electrolysis.
The reason your callipers broke was almost certainly that there was already a small crack present and the electrolysis cleaned out the crack enabling it to propagate - this is a reasonable common event and for folks to blame hydrogen embrittlement.

The removal of metal is possible if;
- the wrong electrolyte is used - acids work great but they should not be used.
- electrolyte is left in the tank too long and exhausted
- nonferrous metals are being treated.clearly
- the article being treated is connected to the wrong electrode which may completely dissolve the metal item.
- High voltages and currents are used - in the eastlink article he recommends 24V which is WAY too high as this will generate too high a current which will in turn break may down the electrolyte into things that harm the metal and generate large volumes of hydrogen gas. He also reckons 4 A is too low whereas I reckon anything higher than 5 A is too high. Sure it takes longer at lower current but it is much safer to do this. I have left many things for two weeks under electrolysis and nothing has happened. All that happens (usually within a couple of days) is the anode gets covered in slime and the current stops flowing. High voltages and currents are also inherently dangerous since this greatly increases the likelihood of sparking which may ignite any hydrogen.

The guy on the eastlink article is not a chemist and some of what he has written attests to this (he also says he had to refer to a relative who is a chemist for advice) so I would treat anything he says with some degree of skepticism.
The reason he uses such large voltages and currents is because he is treating large objects and is finding it hard to get electrolysis happening all over the object. However, instead of increasing the voltage he should use more electrodes and space them equidistant around the and even inside the objects being treated.

Provided low currents <10A and preferably <5A are used, the solution is soft alkaline, and no nasty chemicals or metals are used the process is relatively safe to use on ferrous materials.

I've done this a few times very successfully but never really found an anode I was happy with... steel fouls very quickly so requires constant cleaning and apparently stainless will kill you. Anybody had success with any other materials?


For the power supply I use a modified computer power supply which is a good option because they are capable or quite high current at 12V and can generally be found for free.

Originally Posted by gallegos

I've done this a few times very successfully but never really found an anode I was happy with... steel fouls very quickly so requires constant cleaning and apparently stainless will kill you. Anybody had success with any other materials?

Yep, carbon arc welder rods work well. Normally you can only buy a 20 pack of these so they can be expensive but if you know a really old school welder he will probably have a few laying around his shed that he no longer uses. They are also often coated withe copper which should be dissolved off otherwise the copper will end up on the cathode.

For the power supply I use a modified computer power supply which is a good option because they are capable or quite high current at 12V and can generally be found for free.

That's what I use but I only add enough electrolyte to generate about 5A.

Originally Posted by gallegos

I've done this a few times very successfully but never really found an anode I was happy with... steel fouls very quickly so requires constant cleaning and apparently stainless will kill you. Anybody had success with any other materials?


For the power supply I use a modified computer power supply which is a good option because they are capable or quite high current at 12V and can generally be found for free.

FREE I like FREE!
Computer power supplies come in quite varied specs. Can you provide more details and how was it modified just extended the wires and add gator clips?

Originally Posted by DSEL74

FREE I like FREE!
Computer power supplies come in quite varied specs. Can you provide more details and how was it modified just extended the wires and add gator clips?

I think you should nut n' bolt all your terminals to reduce the risk of this LiveLeak.com - Checking for a gas leak the right way

Depending on your power supply. Just put a jumper on the pins in this link.
Howto: Hotwire a PC power supply(you can use a switch if you like, I just used a bent wire.)
You will likely need a load on 5V line for the power supply to keep running, I just used a dead HDD, I replace it with a 220ohm(?) resistor.
If you felt it was worth the trouble you may also be able to dig out the trim pot to let you control the output V. I can just get mine up to 13.8V as I was using it to float a battery. It wont switch on set that high though.

Stuart

Originally Posted by gallegos

I've done this a few times very successfully but never really found an anode I was happy with... steel fouls very quickly so requires constant cleaning and apparently stainless will kill you. Anybody had success with any other materials?


For the power supply I use a modified computer power supply which is a good option because they are capable or quite high current at 12V and can generally be found for free.

I use lead sheet from the plumbing store and hang it over the side real easy and last for a very long time

Cheers
Harty

Originally Posted by harty69

I use lead sheet from the plumbing store and hang it over the side real easy and last for a very long time

Cheers
Harty

The problem with that is you the create a solution that has lead in it. It won't be much but I bet it will be well over any disposal regulation.

Originally Posted by DSEL74

Below are some divider callipers that went pop after being placed in a bath.

They just had to be round legs too, didn't they.

I run off a 5a, 12v switchmode driver. Works well, takes a few days but will clean just about anything off. Although the lead may not be recommended i might try a bit.....Will the waste water kill the out of control ivy at the back of the shed? The weak caustic/washing soda mix hasn't......

Cheers,
Ew

Originally Posted by Ueee

They just had to be round legs too, didn't they.

I run off a 5a, 12v switchmode driver. Works well, takes a few days but will clean just about anything off. Although the lead may not be recommended i might try a bit.....Will the waste water kill the out of control ivy at the back of the shed? The weak caustic/washing soda mix hasn't......

No it won't affect plants that much.

Lead is a cumulative poison that affects mental health and IQ at low levels well before gums start receding and teeth and nails fall out, then it takes a lot more to cause internal bleeding and death. Did you know that when we were still using leaded petrol we were about 1/4 of the way along to the lead levels the ancient romans experienced and they were applying leaded salts as makeup and spreading lead acetate jelly on bread because it tasted sweet. The Swiss did some interesting research that showed that prisoners have higher levels of blood than the general population but then so do people from inner city suburbs. Inner city areas and 1960s suburb soils are seriously lead contaminated from the used of leaded paints and the fallout from leaded petrol. Fortunately the rain is not that acidic and current soil chemistry locks that lead in the top 50 cm or so of the soil. However, as we burn more coal and the atmosphere becomes more acidic the increasingly acidic rain will dissolve that lead and send it into the aquifers. This is one of many interesting environmental time bombs hanging over us.

Originally Posted by BobL

No it won't affect plants that much.

Lead is a cumulative poison that affects mental health and IQ at low levels well before gums start receding and teeth and nails fall out, then it takes a lot more to cause internal bleeding and death. Did you know that when we were still using leaded petrol we were about 1/4 of the way along to the lead levels the ancient romans experienced and they were applying leaded salts as makeup and spreading lead acetate jelly on bread because it tasted sweet. The Swiss did some interesting research that showed that prisoners have higher levels of blood than the general population but then so do people from inner city suburbs. Inner city areas and 1960s suburb soils are seriously lead contaminated from the used of leaded paints and the fallout from leaded petrol. Fortunately the rain is not that acidic and current soil chemistry locks that lead in the top 50 cm or so of the soil. However, as we burn more coal and the atmosphere becomes more acidic the increasingly acidic rain will dissolve that lead and send it into the aquifers. This is one of many interesting environmental time bombs hanging over us.

Gees Bob, hopefully I will get hit by a bus and I won't have to worry about all that

Phil

Originally Posted by BobL

No it won't affect plants that much.

Lead is a cumulative poison that affects mental health and IQ at low levels well before gums start receding and teeth and nails fall out, then it takes a lot more to cause internal bleeding and death. Did you know that when we were still using leaded petrol we were about 1/4 of the way along to the lead levels the ancient romans experienced and they were applying leaded salts as makeup and spreading lead acetate jelly on bread because it tasted sweet. The Swiss did some interesting research that showed that prisoners have higher levels of blood than the general population but then so do people from inner city suburbs. Inner city areas and 1960s suburb soils are seriously lead contaminated from the used of leaded paints and the fallout from leaded petrol. Fortunately the rain is not that acidic and current soil chemistry locks that lead in the top 50 cm or so of the soil. However, as we burn more coal and the atmosphere becomes more acidic the increasingly acidic rain will dissolve that lead and send it into the aquifers. This is one of many interesting environmental time bombs hanging over us.

I keep wondering about the green paint that is constantly flaking of my roof into the gutters and mostly removed by the filter before it gets to the rainwater tanks that provide all of our domestic water. I have a friend at work who is allways coming up with new disasters like lead etc. It can be scary. I don't believe everything he says but there is still alot of stuff that is going to bite us one day.

One thing that I keep thinking about is that our society is mining products that have been concentrated in small areas over millions of years and now we are slowly dispersing these products all over the surface of the planet. Homoginising so to speak. How much metal etc is laying on the sea floor?

Dean