Thread: All in the eye of the beholder.

It will come as no surprise to anyone, I'm sure, that I much prefer a certain aesthetic in machine tools, aeroplanes, locomotives. Hand tools too, to a large degree. My avatar is a Beechcraft 18/C-45 light twin from the mid 1930's, and is a perfect example of my preferred look.

I used to fly the night mail in Canada in one of those circa 1974. It was a highly polished bare aluminium with a red "war bonnet" stripe set running back from the cockpit. Everywhere I flew that thing it was surrounded by early bizjets etc, but it would attract the most attention. That era of styling cannot be topped in my opinion.

My Hembrug lathe has a beautifully rounded head stock...it echoes the Deckel's curves and sports the same knobs and dials as the FP-1...obviously a common Euro vendor of such things supplied both factories. While I would have purchased any Deckel I am happy that the one I found is an early model. The Hembrug came up just after I had read about them elsewhere. I was so astonished to find one here that I bought it (and overpaid owing to lust) instantly.

I have a friend that wanted an Arboga 2508. Specifically to satisfy his aesthetic requirements. I discovered one for him which he bought. I am now going to buy his 825 EM which suits my needs nicely. Lest anyone think him a wanker I have to say that the coherence of his shop is palpable, and it is a joy to work in.

Oddly, my taste in woodworking machines runs to the very modern for practical reasons such as dust control, motor drives and metric graduations, etc.

Greg Q

I have a photo here somewhere of my Dad driving a '36 (?) Cord Phaeton...which goes a long way to explaining my style biases.

Originally Posted by Anorak Bob

For some they are simply a means to a end. For others, a source of visual pleasure.
BT

My machines are both, but not necessarily in the same machine! I like the look of the Chipmaster more than the Emco Maximat for example.

If it doesn't work for what I want it for, out it goes.

I don't spend time on paint as I know I'm going to damage it anyway. I do spend time on sliding/precision surfaces, dials, bores etc.

I prefer the 'look' of the 1940's to 60's machines with rounded castings over the more modern squared off look, but given a choice between an old machine in fair condition with a non-camlock spindle, small bore and TS taper that didn't lock drills in place, I'd take the modern machine with those features.

OTOH no modern machine is currently made, AFAIK, with the single tooth dog clutch setup in the drive train. My 1940's Monarch does and has rounded castings. A Holbrook or DS&G with this plus a big spindle bore in a camlock spindle would be a fine thing to lay my hands on.

I wouldn't go back earlier than the 40's for lathes or mills personally because the earlier machines lack features I want. Having said that I do have a quite substantial flat belt drive lathe that can swing 28" without effort. I keep it strictly for the really oddball big turning job and if I ever need more space, it's first on the list to depart.

My remark was directed at a planer, which for me comes squarely into the category of tools I'd buy to look at & play with, not something I actually need. Ditto for a VBM, some of the old ones have lovely ornate castings and I want one just because I do. There, form is as important to me as function. The machine has to work (or be restored to working condition), but I'm prepared to make space for & restore an older one with the look I want over a more modern machine even if the more modern one has more power/rigidity/features.

PDW

I feel that the knowledge of a tools abilities is associated with it's "look".
My father and I have a definite generational divergence on machinery.
He is old school and loves huge old rounded machinery associated with quality and rigidity. I however am more comfortable with new Chinese "toy" machinery used within it's limitations.
As I didn't know enough about buying used equipment I found it easier to spec something new for function and accept build quality rather than uncertain ownership and history.
I have recently come to appreciate the Hercus 260 however I will stick with my import.

Originally Posted by Anorak Bob

I am interested to find out how others view their machines and the criteria for their purchase. Often, the acquisition of a machine is a result of opportunity more than any other factor. A chance encounter.


BT

My machines were purchased more on the basis of utility and proven track record rather than appearance. They are all solid and heavy units, and most were purchased for scrap value and restored to serviceable condition. Some show evidence of abuse, some of which can be fixed, and some can't.

As far as square or round castings, I couldn't give a fat rat's. However, generally, older is better, because there was less cost cutting and more over-engineering to compensate for lack of knowledge- and less likely that the machine will be a victim of 'planned obsolescence'.

I have been tempted to promise myself a Bridgeport one day.... but I am a little apprehensive because they look a little 'flimsy' compared to my 1936 Cincinatti 2M. Of course, most Chinese stuff looks even flimsier than a Bridgeport.

And yes.... purchases occur mostly because the opportunity arises, and I have become a lot more decisive as I enter 'middle age'. Recently I saw a 1940's Herbert #4 turret lathe in the driveway of one of our customers. When I asked about it, I found out it worked, they had no room for it, and the 'scrappy' was going to give them $150. Despite not having a great deal of money I scraped up the $150 and I am now the owner. Did I ask the missus? No! Hey, I work hard to support my family and I will not feel guilty about buying something for myself. I see so many hen-pecked and dutiful husbands who feel intimidated about even replacing their clapped out lawn mower because the wife does all the finances. A wife who always has money for acrylic nails....

Luckily my partner doesn't care how many machines I buy... I think she also realizes that they are valuable assets in themselves, and if they are not helping me to earn a living then they can be (regrettably) sold on Ebay for (usually) more than what I paid for them if an emergency arises. My 'obsession' with engineering also keeps me away from pubs and strippers....

So much for the 'opportunity' side. The motive: to learn, to develop new skills, to increase my knowledge, and with luck, teach my children about 'old school' machining- not many schools have metalwork shops anymore.

Someone said me once : "If you want to learn to play guitar, first you must buy the instrument". There is truth here for other things besides playing music.

Anyway, BEAUTY IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEERHOLDER!!!

Hi BT,

Just a personal view, logically, function is more important than looks, but if a machine is crap to look at and use. I'd prefer a machine with quality fit and finish over pure style.
It's the best of all worlds when function, fit and finish combine with good looking style. As you noted the Varnamo Shaper is a good example where everything comes together..

Opportunistic Buying...

I generally have a plan of what I'm attempting to do, (sometimes anyway) and try to equip the workshop to suit the overall plan, just now, I'm setting up to make woodworking tools, chisels, planes and such. So that leads me into grinding 60Rc M2, and so that means CBN, T&C grinder, Surface grinder, Heat Treatment furnace, CNC Mill and so it goes, until the master plan changes.
It's not a hard and fast plan, more of a general direction...

Once you have an idea of the general direction, you start looking for machines to fill various functions, from that point onwards it's just waiting for the right opportunity.


Sometimes a new machine can add capabilites that you didn't anticipate..

From a practical point of view, it's almost as important to have a budget, a restored machine should be less than half the cost of a new machine of equivalent capability, It's nice if you think it could be sold for not much less than it costs to restore... so H&F sell a T&C grinder for $3600, (It's a piece of crap that I wouldn't ever consider a serious machine) but, that give me a budget of $1800 to buy and restore the Cincinnati T&C grinder, So far I looks like coming in well under that, even after allowing for spindle rebuild costs. If I ever had to sell it, I could probably get back at least what it cost me.

The other factor is ugrades, sometimes you might have an opportunity to buy a Lathe or Mill at the right price, that's better than what you already have. If a Schaulblin 135 came up at the right price, I'd buy it in a heartbeat...

I'd buy it just for that tailstock...


Image courtesy of http://www.lathes.co.uk/schaublin135/

You don't happen to know of any going cheap...

Regards
Ray

PS... The beer holder is VB.... of course...

Originally Posted by Gerbilsquasher

So much for the 'opportunity' side. The motive: to learn, to develop new skills, to increase my knowledge, and with luck, teach my children about 'old school' machining- not many schools have metalwork shops anymore.
.

There is a reason for that its all about a thing called liability.

A State High School Industrial Technology /Man Arts teacher can be required to look after a practical roomful of 24 students. Not all of these students may not be as well behaved as some kids and follow the safety and behavior instruction given by the teacher.

Therefore a teacher really can really have his hands full in teaching those students who think it is alright to come to a ( metalwork) lesson and behave as they like.

Metalwork intrinsically involves a mix of many hazards and skills to be learned which the disengaged kids by and large have little interest in.

In a lot of of cases the same students have only selected manual arts to avoid another subject.

Sheet metal projects are largely going by the board because of the hazard level and high cost and lack of teacher time of maintaining tools and machinery.

In Queensland, teachers have had the Crown legal protection removed - presumably as a cost cutting exercise.This means teachers are open to legal action from students parents in the event of an injury to their child.

Teachers are increasingly looking for curriculum that presents minimal risks to the student s they have to deal with and there that explains the ongoing reduction in all things that may present risk to a student.

Teachers are not going to actively promote or develop any curriculum that has any risk associated with it. The online form filling is mind boggling where each incident has be recorded, to protect the teacher.

Many schools are gravitating more towards Graphics / CAD subjects as students would rather study from a computer than receive instruction from the teacher.
Society has changed and so have the kids,their values not always shaped by parents but increasingly by Facebook and U tube and other social media.

The task of a good students is very difficult these days as there is a battle to hear and understand what the teachers say as their learning is constantly disrupted by the ratbags and bludgers who are very hard to remove permanently.

Sorry! My 2C worth turned into $2 worth
Grahame

Originally Posted by RayG

Image courtesy of Schaublin 135 lathe

You don't happen to know of any going cheap...

Regards
Ray

If I did know of one going cheap, I would not be telling anyone about.


Though I don't know as much as some of my esteemed list mates here, I can tell that Schuablin lathe is something special.

Look at the vertical bed way, the tail stock ,the cast bed .They are just a couple of things that attract my amateur eye. I have used maybe 10 different lathes in my machining experience and will have the heavier model anytime. Probably like lipstick on a pig in my case, given my limited machining abilities.

A wise man one said to me you can machine small things on a big lathe but not big things on a small lathe.

Yeah, I know they are more costly ,difficult to move and so on, but the FEEL of machining on a decent lathe is just something else.Its on my gottagetone list.
Grahame

My word. When I was in secondary school we used to toke up before shop class with "Uncle Al the kidddie's pal". On the other hand, in math class we'd expect to get a chalkboard eraser flung directly at us if unable to compete in Calculus. I cannot recall astudent ever complaining about getting beaned by the dead-eyed calc teacher, the same as we were left to our own tears if we managed to flail a limb off with our devil-may-care stupidity in shop.

I once skipped out of football practice so that I could bomb the field with 500gr bags of flour from my hired Cessna 172. They laughed. Today I'd be arrested.

GQ

BTW, I have had my hands on a pristine Schaublin 135. They make everything else look stupidly crude in comparison. Mind you, the owner paid 35,000 euros for it. Used.

I think that there might be a dozen lathes in this class, give or take; Monarch 10EE, Schaublin 125, 135, Hardinge HLV-H, Holbrook, CVA, DeVilliers, Hembrug, Weiler, Boley, Rivett 1020, some unknown Japanese lathe, etc.

You only have to troll the various sites of the world's great Univerisity physics labs to see what everyone operates. They preetty much all use Schaublins where budget allows,

Originally Posted by Grahame Collins

Society has changed and so have the kids,their values not always shaped by parents but increasingly by Facebook and U tube and other social media.

The task of a good students is very difficult these days as there is a battle to hear and understand what the teachers say as their learning is constantly disrupted by the ratbags and bludgers who are very hard to remove permanently.

Insurance companies run (ruin?) the world now....

Agree 100%. For a while now myself and my partner have treated state schools like compulsory child minding and the real learning starts at 3.30pm.

Kids were doing dangerous stuff in metalwork when I was in high school in the 80's- black powder cannons, Ninja stars, knives... the list goes on.

No doubt it's worse nowadays. Usual story, the scumbags can blame someone else for their behavior and there will be a safety net to catch them, while those kids who are genuinely interested in these trades (or even as a hobby) have to make other arrangements, or wait until they are old enough to buy their own toys.

Slightly OT, but I am bringing it back around. My high school closed its metalwork shop and sacked the teacher just before I started my elective project- a steam engine.

It might have had something to do with the scumbags making 'weapons' and a histrionic parent contacting the school.

Now that the OP has opened the floodgates on this group therapy session, I can find another major motivation for purchasing various machine tools- I never forgot how badly I wanted to build that steam engine. I haven't quite got there yet, but at least now the access to the 'metalwork room' is controlled by me, myself and I, and cannot be arbitrarily taken away.

Originally Posted by Greg Q

I once skipped out of football practice so that I could bomb the field with 500gr bags of flour from my hired Cessna 172. They laughed. Today I'd be arrested.

HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!

Everywhere you go now it's all about touchy-feely stuff and putting rounded corners on everything (but though they talk the talk bureaucrats couldn't give a flying f#@* when it comes to the crunch).

Maybe these machines remind us of days gone by, when men were men, women were women and machines were um.... machines.

Even though they might not be OHS compliant, you can still put them to good use rounding off the sharp edges on everything, so the next generation of wimps don't split their fingernails or ladder their stockings.

Originally Posted by Greg Q

I once skipped out of football practice so that I could bomb the field with 500gr bags of flour from my hired Cessna 172. They laughed. Today I'd be arrested.

GQ

I got a bit of a giggle out of that.... I can see it now, the Cessna banking steeply and side slipping into it's bombing run, clouds of white powder drifting across the goalposts... people running for cover....

Yep, you'd get arrested for sure...

Regards
Ray

I could fit about 25 of those 454 gr bags of White Rose flour in a back pack and into the Cessna. Hell, I could have taken a couple of hundred of those things budget permitting ( boo-jey, boo-jey....nah, budget love, budget direct)

. The Cessna had a fold-up siide window on both sides that allowed two-fisted bombing techinque as long as you could capture the yoke between your knees. Those paper sacks of flour would make a room-sized splat mark on the ground, and bio-degradeable too for the approval of the more environmentally concious young nubette.

My Australian physics teacher, Barry Powell, started off a class in acceleration due to gravity thus: "An ######## (Greg) throws a bag of flour from 300 feet. Solve for velocity at impact" I was the pet miscreant in my high school.

Greg, still aching to try a bag of ditto from 41,000 ft.