Thread: Free turning book download

Originally Posted by erickendall

Hi guys, just did a quick browse on this book and with all due respect must say that (in my opinion) at most only 20 percent is really relevant to machining today. Turning between centres is really unheard of these days. The main reason this method was employed in earlier days was because of the limitations of the size of the headstock bearings and the hollow spindle size. The other main distinction between now and then is the tooling involved. ISO tooling inserts mean faster speeds, higher feed rates, and generally, but not always, better finishes.
The other areas that are redundant are measuring equipment and gear selection for screw cutting.
Also all the information on turret lathes. Forget it! Seriously, don't waste your brain power reading this stuff. No one these days is going to stand in front of a turret lathe and rotate a handle backwards and forwards like a monkey for $20.00 per hour.
What I'm trying to say here is that if you have more than a few components to produce, CNC is the only answer.

it could be relivent if where useing machines from around the era of the book.
you know i was in a garage not long ago that specalized in mini's and mini
parts. they where still using a turrent lathe to make some parts.

> It seems all the ones inspected were supposedly ISO 9001 accredited, but several had dirt > floors and clearly didn't meet any kind of standard. Seems that accreditation can simply be
> bought over there.

But ISO 9001 has nothing to do with clean floors or product quality.

You can run a factory that produces complete junk quality and has filthy floors and have it ISO 9001 certified. Not only in China, in any country, including Australia. All you have to do is to put procedures in place, that assure you always and every day consistently and reliably and traceably and safely produce the same junk quality. Not worse on Mondays. And do honestly sell it as such and not claim it be anything better. Think about it, there is a market for expensive top quality, and there is an equally legitimate market for cheap but lesser quality products. And anything in between. ISO 9001 simply ensures consistency and traceability and thereby reduces your legal product liability. Chris

> Turning between centres is really unheard of these days.

It is very common practice when you need to make something accurate. Have you never wondered why many parts like motor shafts have these center pips at each end?

> The main reason this method was employed in earlier days was because of the
> limitations of the size of the headstock bearings and the hollow spindle size.

Wrong. It was and is employed because turning between centers ensures the highest possible concentricity, even higher than when using collets, and it does so repeatably regardless how often you re-chuck the workpiece or even turn it around. Chris

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

But ISO 9001 has nothing to do with clean floors or product quality.

You can run a factory that produces complete junk quality and has filthy floors and have it ISO 9001 certified. Not only in China, in any country, including Australia. All you have to do is to put procedures in place, that assure you always and every day consistently and reliably and traceably and safely produce the same junk quality. Not worse on Mondays. And do honestly sell it as such and not claim it be anything better. Think about it, there is a market for expensive top quality, and there is an equally legitimate market for cheap but lesser quality products. And anything in between. ISO 9001 simply ensures consistency and traceability and thereby reduces your legal product liability. Chris

You are completely missing the point here Chris. Can you imagine that any Chinese company that can't afford any flooring would go to the trouble, let alone the expense of getting legitimate ISO compliance. I think not!! It certainly wouldn't instill any confidence to their prospective customers that visited. Just another example of corruption to win business.

>>>It is very common practice when you need to make something accurate. Have you never wondered why many parts like motor shafts have these center pips at each end?<<<

Wrong. Most of these type of component parts, whether it be automotive, industrial, etc go through three or more operations. First they are rough turned with centre holes drilled, they are then heat treated and then centre ground using the centre holes.

>>>Wrong. It was and is employed because turning between centers ensures the highest possible concentricity, even higher than when using collets, and it does so repeatably regardless how often you re-chuck the workpiece or even turn it around. Chris<<<

You are correct to a certain extent only, but realistically, who the hell wants to re-chuck the component?? This goes back to the old trade school days when students had a job half finished and the bell went. This is not common practice at all these days. Come to think of it, automotive crankshaft grinders all have three jaw self centering chucks at both the headstock and tailstock. Some have dovetailslide adjustment for clocking up the main bearings, while others have three jacking screws that enable clocking up.
Realistically, the only time "between centre" machining is done is on a centre grinder.

When I went to China a few years ago I went to a supermarket in Beijing to get come regular black tea to replace the grass they were providing in the rooms at the hotel. Inside the store we couldn't find it so we decided to ask. We approached the first assistant and said, "good morning" to which they smiled and said "good morning", assuming they spoke English I then said "Tea?" to which they replied "Tea" and looked at me smiling but with a blank look on their face. I then said "Coffee" and they said "Coffee". I then realized they were just copying what I said. I could have said "ISO9000" and they would have replied likewise.

I then said "chai" and they took me to the tea.

Ot one point our hosts were going to take us to a particular restaurant but they had to go somewhere else first so they left us with the address (in Chinese) and telephone number of the restaurant on a piece of paper and all we had to do was show it to a taxi driver on the taxi rank and he would take us there. When we showed it to one taxi driver he did not seem to understand the message and asked us a few questions in chinese but we could not understand him. The taxi driver then called another taxi driver from the rank over but he did not have a clue either. Soon we had 10 taxi drivers and about 10 other people off the footpath trying to help - no one could work out what we wanted. Then a teenager came up to the group who spoke perfect english and he asked us what we were trying to do. He pulled out his mobile and called the restaurant and then explained to the taxi driver where we had to go. No fuss, no bother, cool efficient and most helpful. Eventually we made it to a 7 floor seafood restaurant where the basement had huge aquaria of live seafood and a kitchen that cooked out choices on the spot - certainly one of the most memorable meals of our stay.

Bob, next time it happens indicate to the driver you'd like the interpreter service, there are signs in the taxis IIRC. The taxis can connect via a live voice connection through their network to an operator who speaks perfect English and will explain to the driver where you want to go. It's all done on speaker via a 3 way conversation.

Anyone who thinks China is a bunch of peasants with pointy hats squatting around dirt floors is in for a shock when they see what it's really like. The manufacturing ranges from something from the dark ages to absolute world class, of course if a retailer asks for the cheapest POS they are more than happy to oblige! What the Chinese can't do is innovate, even the Shanghai Times article I was reading there a while back acknowledged that. The solution is ... nothing. They are quite happy to copy thanks very much!

Pete

PS

Realistically, the only time "between centre" machining is done is on a centre grinder.

Thanks for that Eric. Upon returning home I shall immediately destroy the test bar I turned between centres

Originally Posted by Pete F

Bob, next time it happens indicate to the driver you'd like the interpreter service, there are signs in the taxis IIRC. The taxis can connect via a live voice connection through their network to an operator who speaks perfect English and will explain to the driver where you want to go. It's all done on speaker via a 3 way conversation.

Thanks for that - I guess that is something that maybe came in with the Olympics?

. . . . What the Chinese can't do is innovate, . . . .

We seem to forget that a lot of Australians can't innovate either and while your statement might be true for an even larger fraction of the chinese population, if only a few percent are innovative it's still a scary number of people. The chinese science guys I work with are pretty innovative.

And while they lack innovation they hose us under the table on in business acumen. Eventually they will just buy designers and innovators like the Japanese do.

Originally Posted by BobL

Thanks for that - I guess that is something that maybe came in with the Olympics?

We seem to forget that a lot of Australians can't innovate either and while your statement might be true for an even larger fraction of the chinese population, if only a few percent are innovative it's still a scary number of people. The chinese science guys I work with are pretty innovative.

Yes it was brought in for the Olympics ... along with the smoke and mirrors, but that's another story.

To the best of my knowledge your colleagues do not constitute the entire Chinese population, which was of course to which I was referring. Of course individuals can be innovative, however the Chinese culture and system under which it exists within the country is not one in which innovation is encouraged. Don't believe me? Ok, name some recent Chinese innovations that would be commonly recognised amongst most members of the board.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not intending this to be a Chinese bashing exercise. However the observation is not necessarily exclusively mine, most of my initial comments were simply paraphrased from the article I mentioned from the Shanghai newspaper; Chinese talking about themselves. One doesn't need to be innovative to be successful!

Pete

> You are correct to a certain extent only, but realistically, who the hell wants to re-chuck the > component??

Me? You see, I do machining as a hobby. I cannot afford to buy a cylindrical grinder to finish a one off crankshaft for a steam engine. I derive great pleasure and satisfaction from making an almost as good and functioning part using a manual lathe - and the skills I learned loong ago in another life when filing and scraping the famous 1" cube was part of first year basic training for any machinist or toolmaker.

Today they teach youngsters how to make parts on $200K CNC machining centers to exacting tolerances. In a humble home workshop nobody cares too much about tolerance systems. We fit parts together by feel. The results are just as accurate fits as on your CNC machine. The difference is that our parts are not interchangeable, they fit only the one model engine (or vintage bike or whatever we fancy) that we made them for. Since it is a one off, it does not matter.

Of course you are right, in idustry nobody wants to turn between centers. But then, in industry nobody wants to make production parts on our obsolete Hercus manual lathe. Still, if you have time try to visit the maintenance shop that keeps all your expensive production CNC machines running in a large factory. It could be an eye opener to see how many jobs are still done on good old manual machine... by skilled toolmakers...
You see, the fact that it is not economical in industry to do certain tasks on a lathe, does not in any way mean that these tasks cannot be done at all on a lathe. It may take a lot longer, it may require a skilled hand, some lateral thinking, but you would be surprised how much can be done by simple means.

Originally Posted by erickendall

You are completely missing the point here Chris. Can you imagine that any Chinese company that can't afford any flooring would go to the trouble, let alone the expense of getting legitimate ISO compliance. I think not!! It certainly wouldn't instill any confidence to their prospective customers that visited. Just another example of corruption to win business.

- Worldwide more than one million organisations have ISO9000 certification.
- One quarter of all these (250,000) are located in China.
- In comparison, only about 30,000 are located in the USA

ISO 9000 certification does not have to be complex or expensive. A company manufacturing pencils does not need as many or as complex procedures as a company making cars. In China, it may be necessary for a company making pencils for government schools to have ISO9000 accreditation. In turn, the government may provide training and support for the pencil factory towards achieving ISO accreditation. Wich in turn will certainly help exporting pencils to other countries (including Australia) and competing there with factories that do not yet have accreditation..... That is not corruption to win business. Nor does it have anything to do with the factory flooring.

Remember how 40 years ago everybody was laughing at the inferior Japanese quality and technology? It is happening again with China. Chris

Originally Posted by Pete F

Yes it was brought in for the Olympics ... along with the smoke and mirrors, but that's another story.

To the best of my knowledge your colleagues do not constitute the entire Chinese population, which was of course to which I was referring. Of course individuals can be innovative, however the Chinese culture and system under which it exists within the country is not one in which innovation is encouraged. Don't believe me? Ok, name some recent Chinese innovations that would be commonly recognised amongst most members of the board.

Sure I believe you regarding recent major innovations ( we just won't hear or know about the millions of small ones) but I also don't agree that it is a closed book and that it's not in their culture - it's deeply embedded in their culture but the education system and supporting infrastructure has not been there to protect IP. Chinese people living and working in the west are every bit as innovative as westerners. A guy I know who worked for many years for the US military told me that their research establishments now have many chinese working for them including some on their most advanced weapons systems.

The Chinese didn't even have had a patent system until 1985 and even then they never paid any attention to it until a few years ago. Only recently have legal systems upheld significant patent infringement claims by foreign on chinese firms. Once these are up and running and making money from copying becomes more difficult and less profitable then they will have no choice. I heard somewhere that China will overtake the US soon in patent applications per year. Sure, the vast majority of these are for internal to China, low value devices or ideas, but it shows that IP protection systems are gearing up and when they gets going it will be very interesting to see what happens.