The best frozen thread penetrant you never saw - maybe!

[Cliff Rogers]

.... soluble in Trichlorethylene, but 'trike' is no longer so easy to come by, and in any case, has been linked to various health issues, such as cancer IIRC, so at the very least, great care and the use of the right protective equipment would be called for.
Rob.

Yup, flux remover, degreaser, anesthetic, magic stuff, great for cleaning up old furniture & a stack of other things.
Trichloroethylene - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[shedhappens]

Ok..... acetone won't mix with ATF because it is now a hydrocarbon based oil with many synthetic additives, but the old stuff was -

"Sperm whale oil was however still a key component in automatic transmission fluid until 1972"

Whale oil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So.....what other animal oils might do the job ?

[shedhappens]

cod liver oil might be worth a try

[Cliff Rogers]

Ok..... acetone won't mix with ATF because it is now a hydrocarbon based oil with many synthetic additives, but the old stuff was -

"Sperm whale oil was however still a key component in automatic transmission fluid until 1972"

Whale oil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So.....what other animal oils might do the job ?

Whale oil beef hooked.

[azzrock]

if atf and acetone don't mix is this because its a polar solvent.
i wonder if a non polar would work?
I also wonder how important the acetone is.

I have been using the mix for a few tool reclaimations. See plier pics below.
I am at the point where Iam so disappointed with allegedly quality brand name tools made you know where ,I'll chase up selected old tools at the recyclers and put in the effort to refurbish them and end up with a better tool.

RC I take your point about the acetone not mixing.The reading I have done indicated that it is a mix that is not miscible and one person wrote that it looks like salad oil ,ie not homogenised.

I ''ll get some more acetone and make up a new mix.
It may that the type of ATF is critical.

Heres a cut and paste of a formula.

1 part Dexron II, IIe or III ATF, GM Spec. D-20265 or later.
1 part Kerosene - deodorized, K1
1 part Aliphatic Mineral Spirits, Fed. Spec. TT-T-2981F, CAS
#64741-49-9, or may substitute "Stoddard Solvent", CAS #8052-41-3, or
equivalent, (aka "Varsol")
1 part Acetone, CAS #67-64-1.


I''ll try and get some acetone tomorrow evening at Bunnings as I have none left. I think its worth pursuing.

Cheers
Grahame

[Ropetangler]

By the way, Methyl Sal is brilliant at restoring flexibility of old hardened rubber components! E.g.in vintage bikes or cars...
I've used (on advice of professional vintage vehicel restorers) by soaking totally hard intake manifold boots in it overnight and then putting them wet into ziplock bags for a few more days, then cleaning them and letting them dry out for a day. The new flexibility is astounding! Once flexible again, I maintain that state spraying them once overy six monthscwith something called "Rubber Magic" on the bikes. I have a couple of spares I keep in ziplock bags and spray them with Rubber Magic once a year or so and lock them in again. Old rubber treated like that seems to stay in good condition for years after their use-by date.
This might be equally applicable to rubber chip guards, concertina guards and machine tool column boots - I haven't tried.
Cheers,
Joe

Sorry Joe but I just couldn't resist!
I can think of one rubber object that you wouldn't want Methyl Sal anywhere near. Hardness would cease to be the problem, but I could imagine tears, tears and more tears and a frantic search for ice to cool it. Possibly more of a problem for the younger generation, I'm thinking, but the very thought of it is enough to make your eyes water.
Thanks for the good tip though for all those other hardened rubber objects, I'll file that away in the memory banks for future use.
Rob

[Crossfeed]

Acetone is the most polar ketone, going to a less polar ketone such as methyethylketone or methyisobutylketone might work, gunwash thinners contains either or both of these. you might find acetone and animal fat will mix, the acetone is used as a low viscosity carrier with some polarity being a bonus. Animal fat is a polyol ester which makes it a good lubricant and it is substantially cheaper than synthetic polyol esters. I would try it but I don't have any acetone at present.
Edit I just tried vegetable oil (another polyol ester) and absolute ethanol and they mix, sort of, ethanol is a lot more polar than acetone.
Synthetic polyolester is completely soluble in iso propyl alchohol so there is a good chance that any of the ester oils mentioned are soluble in acetone

[jhovel]

So a mix of acetone and -say lanolin - might be good?
Perhaps acetone is too quickly evaporated in a penetrant application.... can you suggest an alternative that is less volatile as a carrier?
On the other hand, a good rust penetrant would or should contain some sort of rust converter (for rusted up parts) like maybe phosphorioc acid - but then that will be prevented form working by the deposit of lanolin.....
Any good ideas?
Joe

[RayG]

Just a passing thought, the usual way of getting polar and non-polar to mix is something with both characteristics.... tada! ... enter detergent.... polar at one end...

Regards
Ray

[Ropetangler]

Acetone is the most polar ketone, going to a less polar ketone such as methyethylketone or methyisobutylketone might work, gunwash thinners contains either or both of these. you might find acetone and animal fat will mix, the acetone is used as a low viscosity carrier with some polarity being a bonus. Animal fat is a polyol ester which makes it a good lubricant and it is substantially cheaper than synthetic polyol esters. I would try it but I don't have any acetone at present.
Edit I just tried vegetable oil (another polyol ester) and absolute ethanol and they mix, sort of, ethanol is a lot more polar than acetone.
Synthetic polyolester is completely soluble in iso propyl alchohol so there is a good chance that any of the ester oils mentioned are soluble in acetone

Crossfeed, can you recommend sources for these solvents? Acetone is normally pretty easy, anyplace supporting the fibreglass industry has it and at a reasonable price the last time I bought some, admittedly more than 20 years ago, but 5 litres has lasted well.
Methyl-ethyl-ketone or MEK IIRC is a component of the PVC pipe jointing solvent, but I have not seen it sold separately on its own. I know nothing of methyl-iso-butyl-ketone, or gunwash thinners for that matter, is that firearms related or are we talking different guns? Absolute ethanol too is a term unfamiliar to me, is this just near 100% ethanol, and would commercial methylated spirits be close enough? If not, where do you get it in say 1 litre amounts? Same again with iso-propyl alcohol, I am familiar with this compound used in disposable wipes, but can't say I have ever seen it at the local hardware store by the litre, perhaps at a paint store, but where would you suggest we get it from?
As Joe has already suggested, would an acetone and lanoline mix work or would some other solvent be better, and would it be fair to say that a thinner mixture, as in a mix of lanoline with a larger proportion of suitable solvent, be more likely to penetrate further into a corroded joint, than a more concentrated solution of the same constituents?
Finally would any of the various thinners for paints of various kinds, be good candidates for a carrier or solvent of the various oils and fats we have been discussing here? Sorry for all thee questions, but I will be interested in your or anyone elses comments and experience.
Rob

[Ueee]

Crossfeed, can you recommend sources for these solvents? Acetone is normally pretty easy, anyplace supporting the fibreglass industry has it and at a reasonable price the last time I bought some, admittedly more than 20 years ago, but 5 litres has lasted well.
Methyl-ethyl-ketone or MEK IIRC is a component of the PVC pipe jointing solvent, but I have not seen it sold separately on its own. I know nothing of methyl-iso-butyl-ketone, or gunwash thinners for that matter, is that firearms related or are we talking different guns? Absolute ethanol too is a term unfamiliar to me, is this just near 100% ethanol, and would commercial methylated spirits be close enough? If not, where do you get it in say 1 litre amounts? Same again with iso-propyl alcohol, I am familiar with this compound used in disposable wipes, but can't say I have ever seen it at the local hardware store by the litre, perhaps at a paint store, but where would you suggest we get it from?
As Joe has already suggested, would an acetone and lanoline mix work or would some other solvent be better, and would it be fair to say that a thinner mixture, as in a mix of lanoline with a larger proportion of suitable solvent, be more likely to penetrate further into a corroded joint, than a more concentrated solution of the same constituents?
Finally would any of the various thinners for paints of various kinds, be good candidates for a carrier or solvent of the various oils and fats we have been discussing here? Sorry for all thee questions, but I will be interested in your or anyone elses comments and experience.
Rob

Hi Rob,
As far as gun wash goes, Crossfeed means spray gun wash. Any auto paint store should sell it, even bunnings does i think. There are several different types though, its been about 6 years since i sprayed on a regular basis but i think some washes contain toluene and some don't.
Mmmm 2 pack fumes....lovely...There was nothing like spraying first thing on a freezing Canberra morning in a 25 deg booth, then come out and clean your gun in 2 or 3 deg thinners.....

Ewan

[Crossfeed]

Methyethylketone is available from fibreglass supplies, methylisobutyl ketone is more specialised, solvent dealers would be a bet there.
Both of them are excellent gum solvents. they may be a little volatile for a penetrant.

A non volatile polar solvent, brake fluid, a short ester like ethylacetate might do the trick, again this one is from the fibreglass industry

Methyl salicylate mentioned previously is another ester oil.

You should be able to use acetone with any of the ester type oils Lanolin is quite a long chain ester making its solubility in polar solvents less you can try it Others are: tallow is. Copha, lard, butter vegetable oil are the list goes on, some of these are prone to degrade in one way or another but they are all excellent lubricants before they degrade

I did mean spray gunwash as in for acrylic auto type paints, generally these are a mix of an aromatic and a ketone much like the acrylic thinners.

Absolute ethanol is as suggested 100% ethanol, I do not recommend this solvent I just had it on hand for so I used it Tax restrictions and hygroscopicity make absolute ethanol a PITA isopropyl alcohol would be a better solvent. Solvent distributors and some industrial supplies for that.

As for using phosphoric acid to free bolts, the problem is that rust takes up more volume than the iron it came from, making it into a phosphate makes it more voluminous being a solid it cannot escape from the joint.

Some food for thought, use what is readily available there may be some optimum but that would mean testing the combinations

[Grahame Collins]

As I indicated in an earlier post I have realized I have been mixing power steering fluid and acetone. Sorry to mess anyone around !

What I have observed is that for tools stored inside the shed its pretty good for preserving the finish as it eventually dries to a wet lacquer type finish.

Used on a badly rusted tool ,it will penetrate frozen pincer and pliers joints.
the mix seems to soften the rust which can be then wire brushed off .

Admittedly this is easier for me as I have an 200mm brush on the other side of the bench grinder motor that drives my linisher. The linisher /wire buff would be the most used tool in the workshop

Since learning about the properties of Oil of wintergreen I have added that to the mix.I do find i use it in preference to WD40 and the rest of the spray can stuff.

Other than that I can't tell you that the brew fixes your rheumitism, arthritus or gout, but it sure is good for reclaiming tools etc

Grahame

[Ueee]

As I indicated in an earlier post I have realized I have been mixing power steering fluid and acetone.

Ummmm, now i am confused, SWMBO's car uses dextron 2 in the box and as steering fluid. It is an old car though. I don't touch my van as it's under warranty still.

Ewan

[mike48]

Hi Crossfeed,

Welcome.

Now dont you go away!
I have a feeling you may be needed in the future.

mike