Thread: Gas Torches Yet Again

Originally Posted by Oldneweng

PDW said he has a Sievert Promatic which I believe is about double the price of the one I listed.

I don't recall saying that, because I don't have one of those. I have oxy-acetylene gear for brazing and oxy-propane for cutting. Both the Comet 3 type torch setup with propane nozzles. The oxy-propane works fine for cutting, not sure what temperature it gets to for brazing because I've never tried. Haven't actually done any brazing in years though it's on the cards in the near future.

The biggest hassle is the cost of bottle rental. I'd rather use oxy-acetylene for everything as it has the hottest temperature (ok oxy-hydrogen is hotter) but I don't like paying $18/month per bottle for an E cylinder.

PDW

Originally Posted by PDW

I don't recall saying that, because I don't have one of those. I have oxy-acetylene gear for brazing and oxy-propane for cutting. Both the Comet 3 type torch setup with propane nozzles. The oxy-propane works fine for cutting, not sure what temperature it gets to for brazing because I've never tried. Haven't actually done any brazing in years though it's on the cards in the near future.

The biggest hassle is the cost of bottle rental. I'd rather use oxy-acetylene for everything as it has the hottest temperature (ok oxy-hydrogen is hotter) but I don't like paying $18/month per bottle for an E cylinder.

PDW

Well you know what that means don't you? I stuffed up again. Oh well someone said it. I think that is the size oxy I have. ps It is a cylinder not a bottle. (spoken quietly)

Dean

Originally Posted by Oldneweng

Well you know what that means don't you? I stuffed up again. Oh well someone said it. I think that is the size oxy I have. ps It is a cylinder not a bottle. (spoken quietly)

Dean

That was Chris (cba) who has a Promatic.

Dean

I hadn't thought along the lines of using the furnace burner for brazing, but I can't see why it wouldn't work. I got a bullfinch and it works a treat for brazing small parts, for bigger parts a custom burner might be just the trick.

A few years back I went mad and made a series of normally aspirated propane burners, they were all modified version of the reil style burners, there are plenty of plans on the internet and they are easy to build and tune up. If running in free air you definitely need a flare, so maybe you could design the flare to do some focusing as well.

I've posted this picture before, with details of various burners here...https://www.woodworkforums.com/f267/c...6/#post1396253



The flare is required to stop the flame from blowing itself out, the idea is to reduce the gas velocity to less than that of the flame velocity. When it's inside a furnace the flare is usually not needed..

Swap and Go gas bottles have got to be one the cheapest options around for easy heating

Regards
Ray

Originally Posted by RayG

Swap and Go gas bottles have got to be one the cheapest options around for easy heating

Yeah, that's what I use. I think I've got 6 of the 9 kg size.

PDW

> First I want it for domestic plumbing during renovations.

Then you probably want to add one of the cyclone burners. The flame of a cyclone burner wraps itself around the pipe to be heated.

> Which burners/nozzles do you use?

My Promatic came only with the 7.5kW standard burner. Later I bought the 0.7kW pin-point burner for the finer jobs.

There are 20 different burners to suit the promatic handpiece: Sievert AB - Professional tools for soldering and other heating duties

Chris

Originally Posted by RayG

I hadn't thought along the lines of using the furnace burner for brazing, but I can't see why it wouldn't work. I got a bullfinch and it works a treat for brazing small parts, for bigger parts a custom burner might be just the trick.

A few years back I went mad and made a series of normally aspirated propane burners, they were all modified version of the reil style burners, there are plenty of plans on the internet and they are easy to build and tune up. If running in free air you definitely need a flare, so maybe you could design the flare to do some focusing as well.

I've posted this picture before, with details of various burners here...https://www.woodworkforums.com/f267/c...6/#post1396253

snip

The flare is required to stop the flame from blowing itself out, the idea is to reduce the gas velocity to less than that of the flame velocity. When it's inside a furnace the flare is usually not needed..

Swap and Go gas bottles have got to be one the cheapest options around for easy heating

Regards
Ray

Nice writeup Ray. I will have to think about your ideas.

Re Swap and Go. They are only 8.5kg (Safety Reasons ) They are about $30 around here. What are they in the BIG Cities? A local hardware does full 9kg fill for $22.

Dean

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

> First I want it for domestic plumbing during renovations.

Then you probably want to add one of the cyclone burners. The flame of a cyclone burner wraps itself around the pipe to be heated.

> Which burners/nozzles do you use?

My Promatic came only with the 7.5kW standard burner. Later I bought the 0.7kW pin-point burner for the finer jobs.

There are 20 different burners to suit the promatic handpiece: Sievert AB - Professional tools for soldering and other heating duties

Chris

The site I looked at only had seperate pieces, not kits. I was thinking about starting with the medium cyclone if I went with Sievert.

The Rothenberger is looking better at this point tho. Cheaper of the three by quite a bit and the quoted flame temp of 2200 deg C is interesting. This info came from a pdf file that was sourced from Rothenberger by our local Reece store. Anyone who would like a copy of this document which is 1.05M, just let me know. The price of $206 also was supplied by this store so I can buy it locally from a business that I have bought quite a lot of stuff from since they opened.

A discussion at the Get Together today elicited the information that a lot of plumbers use them and find them quite suitable.

Dean

Originally Posted by Oldneweng

The site I looked at only had seperate pieces, not kits. I was thinking about starting with the medium cyclone if I went with Sievert.

The Rothenberger is looking better at this point tho. Cheaper of the three by quite a bit and the quoted flame temp of 2200 deg C is interesting. This info came from a pdf file that was sourced from Rothenberger by our local Reece store. Anyone who would like a copy of this document which is 1.05M, just let me know. The price of $206 also was supplied by this store so I can buy it locally from a business that I have bought quite a lot of stuff from since they opened.

A discussion at the Get Together today elicited the information that a lot of plumbers use them and find them quite suitable.

Dean

Dean, I just downloaded the German Rothenberger catalogue, and what a surprise: Rothenberger is selling the Sievert Promatic torch. It looks absolutely identical, except that the handpiece is red color and bears the Rothenberger logo. They gave it the name "Recolt Handy Piezo System Promatic". Not sure if it is OEM Sievert, or made under license, or maybe the Sievert patent has simply expired? Look here on page 186: http://www.rothenberger.com/uploads/...isstechnik.pdf

Regarding the flame temperature, that is not the whole story. What matters much more for soldering and brazing is the heat output. But 2200C sounds like a bold claim to me for a propane/air mixture torch. Are you maybe looking at a propane/oxygen torch? Have a look here for comparison: Flame temperatures
Chris

Originally Posted by Oldneweng

Re Swap and Go. They are only 8.5kg (Safety Reasons ) They are about $30 around here. What are they in the BIG Cities? A local hardware does full 9kg fill for $22.

Dean

I went to the local servo (suburb of Newcastle) on Sat afternoon to get a cylinder and they wanted $35 exchange. Needless to say I didn't get one. I'll have to look around and find a servo that still fills your cylinder.
Masters at Maitland have swap and go for about $24 or $25

bollie7

Originally Posted by bollie7

I went to the local servo (suburb of Newcastle) on Sat afternoon to get a cylinder and they wanted $35 exchange. Needless to say I didn't get one. I'll have to look around and find a servo that still fills your cylinder.
Masters at Maitland have swap and go for about $24 or $25

bollie7

Bunnings do the Kwik Gas bottle swap for $22. I get mine there.

The bottle can be expired, no problem.

Rob

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

Dean, I just downloaded the German Rothenberger catalogue, and what a surprise: Rothenberger is selling the Sievert Promatic torch. It looks absolutely identical, except that the handpiece is red color and bears the Rothenberger logo. They gave it the name "Recolt Handy Piezo System Promatic". Not sure if it is OEM Sievert, or made under license, or maybe the Sievert patent has simply expired? Look here on page 186: http://www.rothenberger.com/uploads/...isstechnik.pdf

Regarding the flame temperature, that is not the whole story. What matters much more for soldering and brazing is the heat output. But 2200C sounds like a bold claim to me for a propane/air mixture torch. Are you maybe looking at a propane/oxygen torch? Have a look here for comparison: Flame temperatures
Chris

Regarding the flame temperature, that is not the whole story. What matters much more for soldering and brazing is the heat output

I am aware of this but the heat output figures seem a bit thin on the ground.

But 2200C sounds like a bold claim to me

That would be why I said "the quoted flame temp of 2200 deg C is interesting".

for a propane/air mixture torch. Are you maybe looking at a propane/oxygen torch?

Hmm, er ar, actually the torch I am looking at seems to be very similar looking to the one referred to in your Rothenberger catalogue. In fact to my eye they both look identical except that neither of the pictures have enough resolution to get a clear view. It is likely that we are talking about the same torch. One of the pictures in my brochure has what appears to be "SUPER 100" on the handpiece in black on white background. The other picture (same side) has no colour and what may be "ROTHENBERGER" raised on it. The inset name spaces in the 2 pictures are also of different widths.

Dean

Originally Posted by nearnexus

Bunnings do the Kwik Gas bottle swap for $22. I get mine there.

The bottle can be expired, no problem.

Rob

$22 for 8.5 kg compared to $22 for 9kg. Hardly worth worrying about that difference. Thanks for reminding me about the expired bottle bit. I had forgotten. I have 3 bottles and 1 that has expired last year. It still looks perfect. It has been bumping around on the trailer, in the farm ute etc for many weeks lol. I put it on the trailer to take down to the metal scrap pile past the woolshed. I did not have the tailgate up. It fell off but was not noticed, due to lack of light I think. It landed next to the woolshed itself. It was noticed from afar by you know who. I used it to sit on while doing fencing next to woolshed. Back into ute then trailer. Still there.

I just this moment mentioned taking this bottle for swapping to SWMBO and she said you mean the one that has bounced around...... Anyway she also said she had seen that bottles must be within date on a Swap and Go sign at a servo. We have to go into town tonight so I will check. That will make 4 bottles. Getting them tested can be a problem around here. I also have another 1 somewhere but as it is about 40yrs old and looks it I might not bother. Off an old caravan.

Dean

Bunnings do not even look at the expiry date. All Kwik Gas distributors will take any expired gas bottle as a swap (provided it is in reasonable condition).

I believe most others are the same - expired is OK.

They retest them and generally it's only the tap/valve that needs to be replaced.

To get them re-tested yourself is a total rip off and not to be even considered.

Rob