Thread: gloves for metalworking?

Ok, thanks for that, yes I had seen that report, it's now quite old. I'd suggest there have been other much more recent reports that have come to quite different conclusions. The problem with the early ABS systems that this study was dealing with is that they tended to produce a "pulsing" type sensation through the pedal back to the driver. That only happened when the ABS was functioning and not in normal stopping. What other studies found was that because the driver wasn't used to that sensation they thought something was "wrong" with the brakes and instinctively relaxed braking pressure, ie the whole system was completely counter-productive in the real world. More modern brake systems firstly don't give this "unusual" feedback to the driver, and also the new generation of drivers are taught the correct way to emergency brake using a modern ABS equipped car. Since most of us here were driving well before ABS was so common, we were taught "threshold braking", but that is not the most appropriate technique for modern ABS vehicles.

As a complete aside, ABS was developed for aircraft, as it's almost impossible to threshold brake in a large aircraft. Indeed we pre-select the deceleration rate at which we would like the aircraft to slow down on touchdown and don't even touch the brake pedals until we're toward the end of the landing roll. It's possible to turn the system off in the event of a malfunction, but doing so and braking at anything other than very light braking on landing will pretty much guarantee blowing tyres. A bit of useless trivia I guess.

Pete

PS Sorry I should explain. The reason for my interest in this area is because one of our cars currently has a malfunctioning Airbag computer. I've been screwing around with this for close on a year now I guess, with my computer being able to interface and talk to some of the car's computers ok, but not talk to others. Very frustrating and it's resulted in a heck of a lot of trawling through the internet trying to figure out firstly why I'm having the communication issues, and secondly why the computer is playing up in the first instance. Don't ever buy an Alfa :P

Originally Posted by Pete F

Don't ever buy an Alfa :P

Hey... them's fightin' words.... got 250,000 up on mine**, no problems at all, except lead feet...

Regards
Ray

PS ** 2002 156 Monza 2.5L V6

Originally Posted by RayG

Hey... them's fightin' words.... got 250,000 up on mine, no problems at all, except lead feet...

Regards
Ray

Yeah one of the guys I train Aikido with has about the same number of K's on his IIRC correctly. We have 156s, I think the only car more poorly designed in terms of serviceability that I've worked on would be a mini! I had to change the clutch master cylinder in the Alfa 12-18 months back. To do so I needed to basically disassemble the complete exhaust and intake system (no I'm not joking) just to get to the firewall. I scratched my head and swore in my best Italian accent ... hmm actually come to think of it I did a LOT of swearing at the Italians on that job, and came up with a different way of doing it to Alfa's service manual procedure so I didn't need to disassemble any of that. Still, it was a right bugger of a job, as the cylinder lives waaaaay up behind the dashboard. I reckon I'm too old to be spending 8 hours upside down with my arm trying to contort itself into very unnatural positions while being cut to pieces on sharp metal! Mind you my previous car was an old BMW, now THAT was a pleasure to work on, I think I was spoiled. The Alfa is fun to drive though!

Could a thread get any more derailed I now take you back to .... gloves!

Pete

Originally Posted by Pete F

Ok, thanks for that, yes I had seen that report, it's now quite old. I'd suggest there have been other much more recent reports that have come to quite different conclusions. The problem with the early ABS systems that this study was dealing with is that they tended to produce a "pulsing" type sensation through the pedal back to the driver. That only happened when the ABS was functioning and not in normal stopping. What other studies found was that because the driver wasn't used to that sensation they thought something was "wrong" with the brakes and instinctively relaxed braking pressure, ie the whole system was completely counter-productive in the real world. More modern brake systems firstly don't give this "unusual" feedback to the driver, and also the new generation of drivers are taught the correct way to emergency brake using a modern ABS equipped car. Since most of us here were driving well before ABS was so common, we were taught "threshold braking", but that is not the most appropriate technique for modern ABS vehicles.

As a complete aside, ABS was developed for aircraft, as it's almost impossible to threshold brake in a large aircraft. Indeed we pre-select the deceleration rate at which we would like the aircraft to slow down on touchdown and don't even touch the brake pedals until we're toward the end of the landing roll. It's possible to turn the system off in the event of a malfunction, but doing so and braking at anything other than very light braking on landing will pretty much guarantee blowing tyres. A bit of useless trivia I guess.

Pete

PS Sorry I should explain. The reason for my interest in this area is because one of our cars currently has a malfunctioning Airbag computer. I've been screwing around with this for close on a year now I guess, with my computer being able to interface and talk to some of the car's computers ok, but not talk to others. Very frustrating and it's resulted in a heck of a lot of trawling through the internet trying to figure out firstly why I'm having the communication issues, and secondly why the computer is playing up in the first instance. Don't ever buy an Alfa :P

it is a little surprise when you first feel the pulsing pedal. a friend had warned me so i knew what wad going on. i all ways make shore my gf's know about so they don't take there foot of the brake.
aaron

Originally Posted by azzrock

it is a little surprise when you first feel the pulsing pedal. a friend had warned me so i knew what wad going on. i all ways make shore my gf's know about so they don't take there foot of the brake.
aaron

Yes that was the problem when the system was first seen in vehicles Aaron. The boffins knew it should theoretically lead to a lower incidence of preventable accidents, however as Stuart pointed out that wasn't initially reflected in the accident statistics. Initially it wasn't understood why, but after a while the reason emerged. Now I believe the statistics more closely follow what should theoretically be occurring as the new generation of drivers learn right from the get-go on ABS equipped cars, and the systems themselves become that much more sophisticated.

Pete

Peter,
That's not the whole story. ABS reduced the rate of some crashes (which was expected) but increased the rates of other accidents(which wasn't). Maybe its risk compensation maybe it isn't, reports seem to disagree in whether people drive faster and closer when the car is fitted with ABS. Maybe its that the ABS allows them to swerve to miss the cute bunny rabbit and end up in the trees instead of understeering over the bunny. If you have a later report I'd like to have a look at it.
Drivers are funny things, cruise control malfunctions and suddenly the brakes don't work, the ignition doesn't work and they cant get it out of gear. Still as cars get "smarter" this would be more and more possible, even the auto in my car (00 VT) wont stay in first past 5500 it just shifts to second. Obviously I cant be trusted. On the whole its likely a good idea given how the mechanics at the local dealer drive on their "test runs".
Stuart

Stuart there have been many studies recently in the past few years on this topic. I really don't want to go down this path any further as I feel it really is horribly off-topic. I can see the thread being irretrievably derailed to the point where there's no recovery and I personally think the OT is probably of more interest to the majority of members here.

Having said that it would be rude of me not to give something as requested, so here's just 2 that came up on the first page of a Google search. http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811182.pdf
and http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/esv/esv21/09-0436.pdf Yes the interesting point is the increase in some types of accidents. I'm just guessing here, but my money would be that the ability to steer a car led to rollover accidents that may not have occurred had the car simply skidded straight. So panic braking was replaced by panic steering. But I stress that's just conjecture on my behalf. I know when I worked in the ski fields 4WD were grossly over-represented in accidents in the area. Likewise in the US I have personally witnessed two 4WD vehicles overtake me in a heavy snow storm while I drove extremely carefully (in my conventional sedan with chains), both were going like all heck. Both crashed within a mile of each other! I suspect for just the reason you suggest.

Pete

Originally Posted by Pete F

I can see the thread being irretrievably derailed to the point where there's no recovery.....

I ordered a dozen pairs of the gloves I originally posted about. How's that for thread recovery?

Originally Posted by jack620

I ordered a dozen pairs of the gloves I originally posted about. How's that for thread recovery?

Whoa! Very slick!!

Originally Posted by Pete F

Dean, no disrespect mate, but I've resisted saying anything until now. However you've made some pretty broad brushed, and I'd suggest quite naïve, statements regarding safety and equipment. I don't see much point in labouring through them, as I'm quite sure I will have zero impact in changing your mind. For the record however I have seen the "it won't happen to me" mentality before,

Pete

I think you have missed my mentality totally Pete. First my attitude is one of truth and honesty and I can be convinced of the truth if I am wrong. Second, the "it wont happen to me" mentality is totally off track. You have not read my posts as they are intended. I am very careful of my safety as I am the only one who cares as much as I do. My safety is determined by thinking, not following predetermined arguments by people who are not in my position. If I see a good safety rule I follow it but if I see a rule that is not relevant to my situation I improve on it. Ask yourself some questions. Do you blindly follow long established safety rules? Do you wait for an hour after eating before swimming? Do you think about the real situation or just go with convention. I have never advocated ignoring safety. I have only said think for yourself as well as following convention because convention may not cover your exact situation.

Re

Originally Posted by Oldneweng
One of my issues with airbags is that they will effect your view and actions in a crash situation. Again protecting the lowest common denominator.
Dean

Please read the whole story. I have no experience with airbags. Zero. I am voicing my concern not knowledge. I have said that I have hit about 30 roos in my current car. My concern is how many of those impacts would activate an airbag if fitted. The last thing I want is to have an airbag in my face when I am maneuvuring at high speed on a dirt road.

Re hi vis. We wear them at work and I think they are a great thing. We are supplied with hi vis clothing but can get normal colour if we want and I always get hi vis for work and normal for home work. I also use my headlights on my vehicles at all times and think it should be compulsory.

Re hard hats. Again you have not read my post properly. We do not have a situation where there is a risk. They are forced on us because it looks good for the company. Same with steel cap boots. No risks. That is what I am saying. No risk but we still suffer unneeded injury.

Instead "the system" just says wear them all the time. Yes it's inconvenient.

Not sure how you manage to get inconvenient out of "BLOODY" painful. Again you misread my words. I am not talking about inconvenient, I am talking about agony to the point I have considered having my little toes amputated to save the pain. This is a medical type problem I am talking about, not inconvenient. Try 12 hours a day, 6 days a week during vintage, going flat out, no time to stop, on concrete the whole time with both little toes crushed underneath the next one because I cannot find correct fitting boots.

Finally, regarding the above quote, I trust you're actually joking about controlling a vehicle after the airbag/seatbelt tensioners/crumple zones/[insert modern safety feature here]. You do know WHEN the airbag deploys right? If you want to argue "bang for buck" safety products I'd be going for anti-lock brakes over no airbag myself

You left this answer til last. Not totally sure what you are actually saying but my issue is after I have impacted a roo at about 100 clicks my design is to continue on down the road to get to where I was going. What else would I do? Call the police? They don't care. As I have already said I have no knowledge of airbag activation. I have never had a car with airbags and I am not sure I want one. I am not joking about continuing down the road after such an impact. I do stop to check if the roo is dead before I keep going. I should point out that I have a solid ali bullbar on my ED falcon wagon. No I don't know when the airbags deploy. How would I?

I totally agree with the last sentence. I had ABS brakes until I had the disks replaced by Ford and then somehow the ABS system stopped working and is no longer able to be replaced. Out of production. I loved them because I felt my wife had a better chance of avoiding roos.

If airbags deploy when a roo is hit at 100 clicks then you will know why I am still driving such an old vehicle. I could not afford airbags if that was the case. Maybe I should also point out that the risk of me hitting a roo or a wombat or a sheep or a cow.... is far far greater than that of me hiiting another car. Cars are rare on my travels except on the 30% of the trip to work that is done on a 2 lane hwy where I might meet 2 or 3. This is not Sydney.

If you have any other questions about my "naive statements" please reply so I can see if I have said something that could be misconstrued. I have read all my posts in this thread and do not see anything that is a problem to me but I welcome another point of view. Stay Safe.

Dean

Originally Posted by jack620

I ordered a dozen pairs of the gloves I originally posted about. How's that for thread recovery?

Didn't last long but...................

Originally Posted by Stustoys

roos v trees. While a tree is about the worse thing you can hit, there are lots of stories of people ending up with a roos coming up the bonnet and through the windscreen. Turns out they aren't very happy to be there! I'm not aware of any evidence to back this up

airbags/helmets etc. Care needs to be taken talking about airbags as the ones in the USA are generally bigger, inflate faster and in less severe crashes. Personal anecdotal evidence on safety equipment isn't always a good thing.

antilock bakes, The last figures I have seen on anti lock brakes said they made little difference to accident rates as people adjust their driving accordingly.


Every one find a comfy seat, this could be a long one lol

Stuart

Yeah, I love long ones.

Around this area a tree is generally the very last thing you want to hit. As I said before I have a bullbar and roos generally bounce off. It is only governments who want to make bullbar design so that pedestrians hit the bonnet windscreen and don't get damaged so much. I don't care except I use a bullbar to reduce damage to my car and an impact in the windscreen area does not acheive my goal.

I have heard of an incident where a horse was hit from behind and ended up with its rear end inside the car. The driver survived the impact but not the aftermath from the horses hoofs. I have also heard of a wedgetail eagle going thru a windscreen of a semi. Apparently the driver did not enjoy the ensuing conversation. He survived but carries some scaring.

One of my roo hits some years ago was from a big buck (eastern grey so not huge) that hopped from the fence line to impact my car without touching down in between. A distance of about 30ft (10m). I worry about them coming thru the windscreen but cannot fit a bullbar there so what do I do?

Airbags? No knowledge. ABS? While I had it I thought it was great. When you avoid a roo and hit the brakes without skidding and still get max stopping power, what could be better? Now I don't have it anymore (see post 56) I have to rely on my braking skill which is fine but takes more concentration and I worry about my wife who doesn't have my driving experience.

Dean

Originally Posted by Pete F

Out of curiosity I just did a search and that doesn't seem to agree with the findings I found. There are certain situations when ABS actually increases stopping distance, however in all cases increases a vehicles controllability. Either way, like ESC, they're intended to reduce being involved in an accident in the first place. The big gotcha is that when comparing ABS/non-ABS it's under laboratory style conditions. Unfortunately real life isn't like that. While we may all like to think we're better than may be reality, the fact is that in an emergency situation we may not behave as we would in a prepared "emergency".


Pete

Agreed. Experience is the only way to tell and considering that driving is like a war zone with everyone else against you is the best option for survival.

Dean

(Pete)Ok, thanks for that, yes I had seen that report, it's now quite old. I'd suggest there have been other much more recent reports that have come to quite different conclusions. The problem with the early ABS systems that this study was dealing with is that they tended to produce a "pulsing" type sensation through the pedal back to the driver. That only happened when the ABS was functioning and not in normal stopping. What other studies found was that because the driver wasn't used to that sensation they thought something was "wrong" with the brakes and instinctively relaxed braking pressure, ie the whole system was completely counter-productive in the real world. More modern brake systems firstly don't give this "unusual" feedback to the driver, and also the new generation of drivers are taught the correct way to emergency brake using a modern ABS equipped car. Since most of us here were driving well before ABS was so common, we were taught "threshold braking", but that is not the most appropriate technique for modern ABS vehicles.

When I first got my car with ABS it was my first experience with it so I tested it on a dirt road which I felt was a safe option and learnt the pulsing action and then was ok with it. How can people be expected to know if they don't test it or learn it in some way? I had it activate on dirt roads only but found it useful.

Stuart. Was talking to people recently who had drive by wire lock in full on position while on the road. They were on the phone (passenger) to experts etc who told them to put the trans in park. I guess that did not last long. I would have turned off the ignition. Maybe you lose a lot of control in a modern car but at least you have time to reduce speed before the impact. A lot of modern cars use remote control for steering, brakes and engine speed. Imagine a blown fuse?

In regards to gloves and boots I have genuine medical conditions that require me to think out side the square of convention. If that makes me naive in the eyes of some then so be it!

Don't forget about Kyle S. He said that if anyone criticises him he will abuse the heck out of them with everything he's got, or some such thing. LOL

Dean