Thread: Hardinge 5C Collet Brochure

Yes Bob, the Walter I bought was never shipped, and now the seller is on hard times, so that money is lost. The Deckel table was on Gray's, but not described as such. I paid much less than half of what they sold one for last week, so I suppose there's some solace in that.

BTW, I hope you have a great time over there.

Greg

Hi Greg and Bob

Originally Posted by Greg Q

I didn't know that the Riken came from the tangential tool holder guy (speaking of tangents). Has he retired?
Greg

Des "retired" I think about 5 years ago, selling on the business to the current owner Gary Sneesby who is a really good friend of his. Des replaced the little Riken that he sold to me with an FP4.

This vernier dial for the dividing head that you mention, how does this work? are there attachment points at the bottom end of the spindle for this? I remember seeing the ring down there, graduated in degrees, but not much provision for mounting anything.
It isnt an optional extra that i've seen mentioned in any of the repro brochures that i've got.

Your Wohlhaupter boring head, is that the UPA3? I'm trying to find one without much luck.
I missed out on a roughly equivalent sized japanese Korouda, on the weekend that I chased to around $700 on ebay (I though that should have been enough to secure it). So if your scouting around, where ever your good source is for all these nice attachments that you've picked up, and see a pretty complete UPA3 (or equivalent) i'd be very interested and appreciative.

regards
GM

Hi...

I haven't really inspected how it mounts to the dividing head or rotary table, but it is a complete unit...I'll have to photo it when I get time. I bought that from Arno Martens in Toronto (He posts on PM from time to time in the Deckel section). He may have some more as he ended up with a lot of old spares when Cosa closed down years ago.

I find most of my things on German ebay...you have to use Google translate and ask them to agree to send it to you which can be hit-and-miss. I bought my centering microscope, boring head and slotter tooling as well as my AMF helical clamps from one guy so the shipping wasn't too bad. A friend visiting Germany was kind enough to fetch back my high speed head for me in her luggage. I'm so glad that she was an otherwise light packer! (And strong)

There seems to be a surge of boring heads on Ebay USA lately as well as that bunch of tooling on Grays in Mortlake last week.

Also...re the Wohlhaupter: I think it's a -3. It might be a -2. Does your machine take an MT4 tool with the Deckel S20 X 2 buttress threaded drawbar?

Greg

I was looking at an FP1 yesterday at the Deutsches Museum in Munich. They are petite in comparison to my 13. A UPA-3 would gobble up too much of the limited vertical clearance on the Schaublin. I would think the Deckel would suffer the same plight. The largest boring head supplied by Schaublin for the 13 had a body diameter of 65 mm, smaller than the -3. I have a feeling that the Swiss may have stuck with an indigenous product made by Rawyler. I did see a beautiful boring and facing head with the appropriate arbor, made by Kaiser, on Ebay UK for 995 Pound, buy it now. Came with a fitted box. I wasn't tempted.

There has been a profusion of UPA-3s on US Ebay but most have Moore tapers. Must have been the boring head of choice for their jig borers. I have seen them offered for as little as $250 but without the removable arbor, they would be next to useless. UPA-2s appear thin on the ground.

Close to the FP1 was an FP2A complete with tractor cab enclosure and cabinets of control gear that would fill a small bedroom. Next to the mill was a Deckel DE 10 spark erosion machine. Just the tip of the iceberg. I took one thousand photos.

GQ, my favourite exhibit was not a machine tool but a 1931 Junkers A50 ci Junior. I will post some photos.

From Lucerne

BT

Hi Bob!

I just this week recieved the Deckel proprietary boring head on a 20mm shank like the one pictured below. It only protrudes 48mm from the spindle, plus the tool length. I imagine its going to be my go-to everyday boring device.

Greg

Originally Posted by BrianLara400*

Hi Greg and Bob

This vernier dial for the dividing head that you mention, how does this work? are there attachment points at the bottom end of the spindle for this? I remember seeing the ring down there, graduated in degrees, but not much provision for mounting anything.
It isnt an optional extra that i've seen mentioned in any of the repro brochures that i've got.

regards
GM

The dividing head and rotary table share the same actuating spindle details, hence the various plates can be shared, as well as the degree index vernier.

Here are some photos of the assembly. I can't find a part number apart from what's on the box, but be aware that Deckel discarded their old part number scheme years ago and there is no cross reference. Arno can be found on Practicalmachinist if you want to inquire about getting one of these. I think he had more of them.

Greg

Originally Posted by Anorak Bob

A UPA-3 would gobble up too much of the limited vertical clearance on the Schaublin. I would think the Deckel would suffer the same plight.

Now I think about it it probably would be fairly limiting, - The reason I had been looking at the UPA 3, is that was what had featured in the reproduction sales literature for the FP1 I had got. I suppose I figured that it must have been a pretty close match for the capabilities of the little deckel, as that was what they had been pushing in their brochures (but i'll certainly give it closer consideration now).
Enjoy the rest of your trip Bob, and if you felt like sharing when you get back - those deckel pic's sound interesting.

Originally Posted by Greg Q

Hi Bob!
I just this week recieved the Deckel proprietary boring head on a 20mm shank like the one pictured below. It only protrudes 48mm from the spindle, plus the tool length. I imagine its going to be my go-to everyday boring device.

Greg

Should be a real handy bit of gear
I had also seen this in the repro fp1 manual - (and i'll admit didn't give it a second thought, but i'm getting much keener on it now) however I suppose the only thing it gives away to the wohlhaupter, is a little bit of size capacity, and the automatic feature. If you don't mind, how much did you pick this up for? (as i'd now have to seriously consider this instead of the wohlhaupter)
and yes like the deckel fp1 (i've got to remember mine is actually a Riken rtm-2, ) the main spindle, horizontal spindle (& dividing head spindle? I assume) are all a number 4 Morse.

That vernier scale looks real nice, I didn't even consider that it may be fitted inplace of the dividing plates. I have contacted Arno, and he is having a look for me to see if he has anymore of these stashed away.

Have you seen the Thiel Milling machine thats on ebay currently in sydney?

UPA-3 is still being pushed for the FP1 in a late 80s brochure I notice.

Mortlake ones were around 600 +, once all the nasty add-ons accumulate.

There was a lovely virtually unused D'andrea at a live auction a year or so that went for around a third of that, if you could counter cross-ethnicities....pity about what it would cost for the right arbor.

Originally Posted by BrianLara400*

That vernier scale looks real nice, I didn't even consider that it may be fitted inplace of the dividing plates. I have contacted Arno, and he is having a look for me to see if he has anymore of these stashed away.

One on ebay de just the other day....might be still.

That looks like a reasonably nice Thiel 158. No attachments though which kind of defeats the purpose of a toolmaker's mill. That model is probably more like an FP2 wih the long-reach head with longer y axis travel.

Just as an aside I have read three ads this week claiming something to be "sort" after. I sought clarification of sorts but, alas...

I hope Arno comes through with a part for you. The unit I showed is still covered in cosmoline; it's very nice.

Greg

On edit: Although it was only last month I forget what exactly I paid. I think it was 120 Euro. It was not described as Deckel, and the seller ended it early on my offer. I don't get the impression that they are common. Deckel called it the boring chuck FZA 1. Avail in inch or metric. Stock numbers 2140 201011 in inch and 2140 01011 metric and 2140 00011 metric with MT4 shank. The unit has two mounting holes for 10mm boring bars and traverses 15mm total. Looks like it'll do a 50mm bore.

On further edit I just realised that it will also mount a lathe tool bit to go out to maybe 100 dia.

Arno, didnt have any left - but he was very helpfull

"Supplementary Indexing Device", part # 6032.
Zusatzteilvorrichtung

Now i know what to look for Franz Singer has two in his ebay store at the moment.

Originally Posted by BrianLara400*

Arno, didnt have any left - but he was very helpfull

Now i know what to look for Franz Singer has two in his ebay store at the moment.

Franz has some pretty sporting prices, doesn't he? Walter is the guy to communicate in English with, but they are very formal.

Greg

You'd better define "sporting" for me Greg
I havent picked one of those up yet, there was another bloke who was selling one over there for 100 AUD less than singer, but (here's the catch) wouldn't post outside Germany.

I dont know what happened with the orientation of the pictures, they werent uploaded to imageshack that way - so I'm buggered if I can work it out.
Here's my latest fp1 (RTM-2) related purchases:

The Wohlhaupter I've had a few weeks, have done a few jobs with it now and am very impressed. This came from ebay de and at the same time I bought a lot on ebay italy with a heap of Kuroda spares in it, most of which are interchangeable.

And my centricator showed up today from ebay france, and it appears to be original & complete apart from the Mitutoyo clock. I haven't had a chance to field test this yet.

Was that you outbidding me on the French Centricator? Bummer. We should have compared notes, although I don't remember being the second highest bidder. Please let me know if you are chasing any mt4/mk4 stuff as we may be in the same pool and I don't want either of us paying too much.

Franz's prices are adventurous...meaning that he seems to be willing to list things for a long time waiting for a buyer. I'd rather go to him for the unobtainable things like repro speed plates and bellows etc. Otherwise, for things like collets and tooling his prices are...what's the German word? Oh yeah...abenteuerlich. No, that's not it...verdammt Diebstahl may be closer to the mark.

Best

Greg

I have to ask. What can a Centricator do that a simple vertical DTI can not?

I have seen, fondled but not used a Centricator. I would have one simply because they are a thing of mechanical joy. Schaublin didn't offer one in their catalogues. They did list French made OPL optical micrometers so non native wasn't an issue. Singer had a number of Centricators for sale last time I looked. Have Heidenhain et al put an end to their use?

BT