Thread: Hare and Forbes Asbestos warning

Originally Posted by brisbanefitter

we are willing to resolve it

With a pretty sticker

I gather the letter is to get H&F out of possible legal action, atleast they can now say we did warn you.

Originally Posted by brisbanefitter

Dave, I owe you a small apology.

No need, I saw the mistake in the earlier post but was not bothered about it.

But I think you owe the forum members an apology for the B***S*** and spamming in your earlier post. Was there really a need when I had already posted about the same sale earlier?
https://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/ha...s-sale-107881/

I take everybody on this forum like myself until proven otherwise, that is honest and truthful.

You say they have to ring the number to get help, WHY, H&F's already know where they live because they sent them a sticker. Why don't H&F contact the buyers and put this right., Why is it up to the buyer to do the running around?

Dave

hi dave,
at the risk of getting myself a warning letter I will state the following:
All schools and government related departments, industries and workshops who have machines with this problem will be scheduled to have the brake pads replaced, reqeust or not. Hare and Forbes are replacing all asbestos containing shoes and or pads in these enironments.
At my last check, We have stock of asbestos free brake materials. We are to the best of my knowledge going to replace all brake matrerials in the above categories. i do not or did not have any influence or this, it is a decision made by the directors of the company
If a forum member wishes to have replacement parts sent out I only suggest calling and asking for one reason, there are so many machines, probably in the thousands, out there with this problem. In our operating computer system, it stands ot much more easily ( and I dont mean easily in as we dont give a crap, it is that it stands out more clearly in the way our system searches and displays on the screen) when a multiple purchase of machines has been made, as in the above mentioned, as these organisations tend to buy in multiple numbers.
It is not that we do not care about the home hobby person, to do this would be absurd and ignorant and down right stupid and there are many a post to suggest we dont, which dissapoints me.
As I made very clear in my posts last night, I care. The home hobby person is the customer who is most likely to be return customer. Yes, industry buys in bigger dollar amounts, but at the end of the day the person standing on the other side of the counter, or on the phone, is what is number one. I dont care if you want a 12000mm x 1000 tonne pressbrake or a 2mt dead centre, each and every customer should be given respect and if and when a warranty issue comes up, a prompt and decisive answer to the issue at hand
It may be ahrd to beleive but I do care, those who have expressed their absolute almost hatred toward Hare and Forbes have gorunds to do so. As in the case of retromilling's lathe, that is a situation that is hard for me to swallow with the responses this man has had. I am dissapointed that such an attidue seems to be the norm for the company I work for, the reflection upon those who are rude, lazy or act in a manner that is stupid does reflect on me. Yes, I am sure there is most likely some of my colleges are this way inclined. I do not appreciate it, I always think about the situation as if I were the person on the other side, what would I reasonably expect.
It does directly reflect on me, as I work for this company, whom too many people have had a bad experience. One bad experience is one too many.
This forum, viewed by many hundreds of thousands if not millions of people, can be my best friend or worst enemy. For example, retromilling has had a very bad experience with us, so bad I do not blame him for not wanting to have any further contact. Now, a person who is just starting out with his home shop, looks on this forum, finds retro's post, reads it in full, what will they think.
I can tell you, If I was a new buyer in the market, and I read what he has been through, I would have gone elsewhere. It makes me wonder, how many people have. The number doesnt have to be huge. Lets say, 100 people read it, over six months, and of the one hundred 10 walk away from Hare and Forbes based on what has happened. The general hobby customer will spend say $3000 on either a small lathe with tooling or small mill drill with tooling, this is probaly under estimate. For the purpose of the excersise it will do. 10 people, spending 3k each = 30k we have lost for one persons bad attitude. To compound this on the other side of the equation with reagrds to what we coukd gain, lets say these same 10 get good service and return again, OK, if the buyer is happy with the way they are treated, that 3k might become 4k initially, so we have 40k in our pocket. Then same customer comes back and spends another 500 on more tooling, so we have an extra 5k from same 10 customers. then consumables, over a period of time, lets say an average pack of inserts at 90 a pack if buying 2 a year = 180 per person = 1800 for the year.
So, if I am rude and ignorant I stand to lose 46,800 in sales for the year.

I only suggested to call the number in the letter concerning brakes and request a replacement by our staff as this is by far going to be the fastest way to have it done. As stated, we are systematically going through all the multiple purchase persons or organisations first. I ask that the owenrs of these machines call us, as one person, or many one persons calling us will bring your request to the forefront of action to be taken. I know this sounds bad, but to give a little perspective on the situation, in Brisbane we have 2 service techs that cover the entire od QLD, northern NSW to about Coffs harobour or thereabouts, and all of the NT. Massive area, a lot of machines, 2 people to cover it.
I think perhaps maybe, yes, we should get more techs, but, if you advertise for a tech to work with asbestos, most will say no. So we have a really bad situation where many thousands of people are in the same boat.

Please, all those who have posted and those who are thinking about it, pm me. I will attempt to at the very least get you some replacement brakes. I cannot promise a timeframe for us to do the replacment as this is being handled by our service managers but I can most likely get you the parts required to fix the problem sooner than a tech to do the job. If our tests are accurate you shoukd be able to change the brakes without excessive exposure to asbestos. Our tests were done by independent authorities, not internal.

Each and every person has a right to suspect my statements are just those of a puppet being told what to say and do and I respect that, especially for those thst have had sub standard service in the past. Those once burned I expect to be wary of the company.

Lastly, Matthew, I am sad to learn of your gradual dissatisfaction with Hare and Forbes Melbourne. It is a poor reflection on the company as a whole when this occurs. I cannot speak for the staff of the Melbourne branch and I have not personally met more than 2 or 3 of the staff at the most.
It is people like yourself who we rely on, the frequent and repeat customers. If we burn you, where are we then?
As I have said mulitple times, I am but a single person in a single branch, at the other end of the country to you. I can do little to nothing to make things right for both yourself and your daughter and make you want to come back to Hare and Forbes in Melbourne, I am nothigh enough up the food chain to make that much of a difference.

HI,
Well I got a Letter/sticker too in regards to an AL-340A. I had purchased an AL-340A, but the Freight Company dropped it at their Depot whilst transferring it from the Linehaul truck to a smaller truck. As a result the Freight Company after many letters and Phone Calls Paid for a Replacement Lathe - I bought a AL-960b with a DRO. I don't know what happened to My old Lathe, I Myself will be Emailing Hare and Forbes to remind them that it got damaged and Someone else may have it.

So the Abestos Warning does not Concern Me. Before I go on any further I do not Work for Hare and Forbes, I am but a satisfied Customer. If it means anything where I Work I Represent two Big Marine Companys 'MERCURY' and 'YAMAHA' both of which are bigger than Hare & Forbes. For a start Hare & Forbes could have kept this quiet, but they chose not too. The Letter in question States that the Brake Lining 'MAY' contain traces of Abestos. The Letter also tells us that they have had Representative Machines Independently Tested - the results are clearly on the Letter.

They H & F also give us a Phone Number to Call should we wish to Discuss the matter further. As for anyone taking Legal action against Hare & Forbes, I don't think You would have a Leg to stand on. Hare & Forbes became aware of the possible Abestos Issue, had Independent Testing done, and Notified us the Purchasers of the Issue. I am also not being Bias as the Issue no longer concerns Me.

Think about this - How many of us in the Past have Worked on Old Cars and Motorbike Brake Systems or been near Someone that was with out any Protection? I know I have so who else?. As Brisbane Fitter said if You want New Brake Pads ask for them.

A satisfied Customer Yes I am. I have always Received good Service Instore at the Melbourne Branch and Via the Phone. I Bought a Imperial keyway Broach Set a couple of Years ago the Invoice was about $100.00 Dearer than the Internet Price - I Complained about the Invoice Price and Hare & Forbes met Me halfway. I Phoned the Sydney Branch to Question the AL-336 Cross Slide Travel as it was listed as being 130mm which is less than half the swing over the Bed. They Rang Me back with a Correction of 175mm and they updated it on the Website. I recently bought some American Type HSS Tool Holders for My AL-960b as one Staff Member said they fit well they didn't fit. I Rang H & F and Spoke to a different Staff Member (other was on Holidays) who checked out the American Tool Holders and said they will never fit. He changed them over to the Drop Point Type as I can make them fit and this was a Month later.

I know what it is like to get bad Service and incorrect Information - its not very Nice. Hare and forbes are an Old Company and a good one in My experience. It is a Shame (from what I have Read on this Forum) that some of their Staff are Rude, don't want to Help when You are in Store just to Buy Accessorys. The Staff Members in question, should think that if You're their to Buy Accessorys You have possibly Bought a Machine of them. As for being Rude Hare & Forbes need to implement a Training Program to Improve their Staffs attitude to the Customers - after all We the Customers are Paying their Wages.

I recently spent 4600 odd dollars at H&F for a tool and cutter grinder and accessories, i am happy with the quality of the machine and accessories. I am less than impressed with the FACT that there is no proper documentation for the machine forthcoming from H&F. By proper documentation I mean a proper users manual detailing correct methods for setup and use of the machine and its accessories.
I read the rubbish that came with the machine and the very last bit of the
" Tool & Cutter Grinder Safety Instructions"
20. Call for help. If at any time you experience difficulties, stop the machine and call your nearest branch service department for help.

Well I have a drill grinding attachment with the machine and wanted info on how to set it up, so I called for help, and was told that H&F HAVE NO INSTRUCTIONS OR MANUAL WHATSOEVER FOR THIS OR ANY PART OF THE MACHINE, basically I bought so I am stuck with it, work it out myself, we got your money now leave us alone.
A member of this forum actually sent me a copy of a manual for the drill grinder, with H&Fs own brand TOOLMASTER on it?

I have been a loyal customer for many years, this incident has tainted my loyalty. While I was at H&F Sydney I also inquired about their small CNC Milling Machine, was given the Schools and Tafe Catalogue and told 25,000.00 and I could have one!
I ordered a new Tormach PCNC1100 and accessories this week straight from Tormach in Wisconsin, who are bending over backwards to help me and they also have all their documentation on their website for everyone to see.
Will
Who is now shopping around

I just noticed on the lathe at work that was purchased from there has the sticker on it and i have had it apart fixing other things before, didnt realise this was for that size lathe.

So the groups LIKELY to know of the issue and sue, drop all the HF gear they have, seek refunds and costs are helped out but the normal consumer is forced to push for it to be fixed?

IF they were serious about sorting it out they would be putting recalls into magazines, contacting people and arranging on the spot fixes, fitted at HF's cost.
Matter of fact, that's really the only sane solution. Anything else is risking huge issues. They have shown they are aware of the issue and for some customers they are fixing it. I know I wouldn't want to stand up in court and answer questions about why it was done like this.


Anyone lodged formal complaints? If not you guys need to step up and force the right thing to happen.

What would Holden or Ford be forced to do if they found they sold (within the last ten years) cars with asbestos brakes?

I'd read somewhere that the average human being has around 200 000 naturally occurring asbestos fibres per cubic cm of lung tissue. It seems that over time you'll pick up fibres from breathing air.

and any "one" of them can start the issue.


Any of the car makers would be force to put an immediate recall out and a stop work notice for users of those products. It would be in all the papers and great effort would be put into tracking all the users down. Not just those who might make something of it or who might cause "harm" to the company.

While not wanting minimise the risk, even a Wittenoom mine worker digging blue asbestos only had a 1 in 20 chance of getting asbestosis.

Hi guys ,
Just for the record, the H & Fitter turned up in his van on Friday.
It seems he is making his way through the schools up our way that have H & F machines.We did not know he was coming, he just turned up.
He went through our lathes and mill and replaced the brake bands.He reckons they weren't asbestos but replaced them anyway.

Nice chap,he really ,he did not deserve the earful he got from my boss about what he now thinks about H & F equipment.

Our local guy who fixes the lathes came in today and worked on one of the lathes. The bearing that supports the input pulley shaft shat itself due to swarf (from manufacture) in the gearbox. Oil is splashed on the inside of the gear box lid and drains down a cast formed gallery to gravity feed the bearing.

The dead give away was the chips sitting in the gallery almost blocking the gallery drain hole to the bearing.This is not what I want to see in a $17000 school lathe.it means all the other lathes will need to be drained and flushed out and re filled with good oil.

This won't be easy as the drain pug is about 30mm or so above the gearbox base (or floor for wont of a better word )
The lathe repair guy had to sponge out the oil under the drain plug line.

The lathe repair guy is puzzled to why a class 1 precision bearing is used in the "cheap end" of the system, because that's what was in there.

He has to come back next week to repair No. 2 lathe which has the main box high /low ratio shaft machined over specs and consequently even superman can't swap High/Low cogs. How do we know what the specs are?
We know, because we took the lids off the other lathes and measured each bloody shaft.

Does any one know where I can buy one of those geared pumps that run off a an electric drill?

Thanks
Grahame

Originally Posted by Graziano

While not wanting minimise the risk, even a Wittenoom mine worker digging blue asbestos only had a 1 in 20 chance of getting asbestosis.

and it takes how many fibres to cause it?
and how many of you wear protective gear while leaning over your lathe?

Originally Posted by Ash240

and it takes how many fibres to cause it?
and how many of you wear protective gear while leaning over your lathe?

Sheesh......... Asbestosis is what is known as an "Anecdotal" illness; most likely along genetic lines, some people can get buried in it and be unaffected, some people have to look at a single fibre cross eyed and die of it. I would think car brakes would until recently have been far more of a risk than a H&F lathe. In any case the average human has 200 000 fibres of asbestos in every cubic cm of lung tissue over the course of their life. To keep things in perspective alcohol is far more dangerous on a per capita basis than asbestos by a factor of a 1000 or so.