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Thread: Keeping up with the Jones
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27th July 2015, 10:38 PM #91Philomath in training
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27th July 2015 10:38 PM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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28th July 2015, 10:53 AM #92GOLD MEMBER
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Girl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.
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2nd August 2015, 08:35 AM #93Philomath in training
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One of the things that I have been trying to work out is what sort of oil to run in the grinder spindle bearings. As the wheel can spin up to 6800rpm it is probably classed as a high speed application (although normal speed is about 4000rpm) so reasonable lubrication is necessary. Phil has kindly given me some tips regarding rate but the big question I had was with respect to viscosity.
I found this paper which I thought was a good general explanation of the basics of bearing lubrication
Summary_of_Lubrication_in_Journal_Bearings.pdf
As Murphy's law predicts, my grinder is off the edge of the chart so not much use other than a general guess but an interesting read anyway.
If anyone runs a lathe with small diameter plain bearings, what viscosity oil do you use?
(my bearings are around 3/4" diameter, 1.25" long but lightly loaded - say a few lbs. Radial clearance is about 5/10ths)
The dilemma is that if the oil is too thin (runs out too quickly) or too thick (doesn't get in properly) wear could result. Proper hydrodynamic lubrication should make it almost wear free. I'd like to be able to use the same oil that gets used on everything else (ISO68) but the information that I've seen so far says that may be on the heavy side - however, the general suggestions that they make range from ISO 10 to 32. A pretty big difference.
Michael
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2nd August 2015, 09:53 AM #94Pink 10EE owner
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The Jones and Shipman 540 plain bearing model says to use Velocite 3 oil...
If you want some I have heaps here I can donate some to the cause...Light red, the colour of choice for the discerning man.
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2nd August 2015, 06:42 PM #95Philomath in training
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Thanks - I might take you up on that one. I'll get back to you in a bit on that.
In the meantime -
Yesterday I fitted the tensioners for micro-Vee belts I'm using for speed control (the original machine uses V belts for the same purpose but the idea of a tensioning roller on the back of a V belt... )
Today I wanted to mount a tensioner for the wheel head belt. It is simply a pivoting arm with a roller on one end that applies pressure to the belt via spring force. I finished the arm yesterday and for a while was stuck on how to attach it to the frame. I eventually decided a bush into the frame that the top pivot could just screw into. All good, but how to get the pivot axis parallel with the axis of the roller? I got the roller axis and pivot axis parallel by clamping the roller and using it as a datum when drilling the hole for the pivot bushes. The frame was trickier as I could not fit it in the drill press. Eventually I remembered dad's Record doweling jig. Setting that up allowed me to get the hole square to the tube so that I could then mount the bush. So if anyone asks whether you use a doweling jig in metal work, the answer is yes!
P1030122 (Medium).JPG
One of the things added to the list when I strip down to paint is to machine my bearing housings. I was amazed when I saw the gap under the washer. I think I might have to make up thicker washers too.
P1030124 (Medium).JPG
Anyway, here is the grinder with the tension roller in place. It could do with being longer and if it were slightly heavier I think I may be able to get away without the spring for tension
P1030125 (Medium).JPG
Of course with tension on the wheel head belt I could not resist. The most amazing thing is (although probably quite by accident) the speed is within 5rpm of target (3900rpm)
P1030126 (Medium).JPG
Michael
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3rd August 2015, 09:55 AM #96Senior Member
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4th August 2015, 02:31 AM #97New Member
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Power system
Are you going to power other machinery of that system?
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4th August 2015, 07:50 AM #98Philomath in training
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G'day Tony - welcome to the forum.
In answer to your question, no. The original machine came out with an over head system like this so I'm just trying to replicate what was originally done. One of the problems with directly driving something like this is vibration, so driving things by belt takes that away. Also, this machine is late 1930's technology, so while I've taken some liberties with the way I've done things the drive was at the time state of the art.
img7.jpg
See also (place the picture came from) http://www.lathes.co.uk/jonesandshipman/page3.html
Michael
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4th August 2015, 08:48 AM #99GOLD MEMBER
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Hi Michael,
I had never read the write up from lathes UK on the grinder until now. What an amazing piece of machinery. WRT powering it up, you certainly haven't taken the easy way out!
I can't wait to see it up and running.
SimonGirl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.
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4th August 2015, 09:03 PM #100Philomath in training
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You're not the only one. It really is an experimental project. Most of the things I've done on that frame have been done twice or modified at the very least as there are subtle differences in what it looks like in the pics and how it actually works. I have 2 guys in the UK contributing plus a couple of people at the J&S factory helping out with the odd technical question they can answer as there are no drawings or models there. Last night I was told that they recommend an ISO32 oil - more viscous than I would have thought but they are the OEM and would have the best idea of anyone.
I have finally managed to find a source for wheels though so although a 16 week leadtime and a MOQ of 10, at least I won't be scared to use it when I want to. The next big challenge is making up the drum. I have a design on paper and have bought some bits to go into it but I really don't know whether that will work either.
Michael
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15th August 2015, 07:28 PM #101Philomath in training
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A slight diversion from the main game...
As well as the drip oilers on the spindle there are other oil points on the J&S so another oil can is required. I did intend to buy a new can for this purpose but while wandering through a bric-a-brac shop saw this -
P1030132 (Medium).JPG
A bit pricy at $15 but I thought I saw Rega through the dirt encrustation so took a chance. Getting it home and after a quick clean I saw it was indeed a Rega, but before it could be used the broken handle required repair. It needed to be soldered back on and I'd passed on my 80W roofing iron to someone else. The electrical soldering iron I have is 30W which I did not think would be powerful enough. A blow torch flame would likely do other damage. I rummaged through the cupboards for inspiration and came up with the hot air gun that I have. As the photo shows, with the small nozzle on it the temperature can get quite high - certainly high enough for soft solder but able to be directed enough that other parts should not be damaged.
P1030135 (Medium).JPG
The joint was drenched in Baker's and then hit with the air gun. To hold the strap in the right place I used a hose clamp. I bought an assortment some time back and rarely use them on hoses but find for clamping and holding things (including on the lathe) they can be very useful.
P1030133 (Medium).JPG
Having repaired it naturally I though I'd better see how it pumped oil. To my great surprise, the oil came out green - the only thing I can think of that is green is brake fluid, so it looks like the previous owner may have used it for that (why is a completely different question...). I put some kerosene in there to flush things out and that came out silvery gray. This last photo just shows some of the gunk in there - it looks like never seize (or similar). This was an even more "why would you do that" sort of question.
P1030138 (Medium).JPG
The bottom of can looks thickly coated with it so at the moment I've got it filled with kero and I hope overnight that will dissolve the silvery stuff well enough that tomorrow I can rinse it out.
The underside of the can says it is a 1/2 pint Rega and from the brass cap and terne coated steel I'm guessing roughly about the same period as the grinder (stamped 030 on the base - model number?)
Will it ever be usable for lubricating oil though?
Michael
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15th August 2015, 10:04 PM #102GOLD MEMBER
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Nice find Michael, should be a good one, once it comes clean.. Might need several doses to clean it out though. Obviously the bric a brac shop didn't know what they're worth.
Kryn
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16th August 2015, 09:50 AM #103GOLD MEMBER
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Nice work Michael. I never thought of soldering with a heat gun!
So, what's the going price on a used Rega oil can? Is $15 a super deal? I see a few from time to time at our local market, the going price is usually to $10 to $15 mark as I have bought one a while back. Michael, if you have no joy with Kero, maybe you could try with degreaser or other cleaning product and in an ultrasonic cleaner?
SimonGirl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.
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16th August 2015, 10:25 AM #104Pink 10EE owner
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I have a leister hot air gun and I have used the hot air bit to solder a new terminal onto a truck battery that was badly damaged by an ill fitting clamp.
I was reading the link on lathes.co.uk... I would say the wheel surface speed would be pretty high on the fastest speed ", ran at 3900, 5000 and 67500 r.p.m."Light red, the colour of choice for the discerning man.
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16th August 2015, 10:50 AM #105Philomath in training
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The wheel speeds are designed to allow you to adjust when the wheel diameter is reduced and still allow you to grind near optimum speed. A 5" wheel is meant to be run at 3900rpm (the ones I have have a maximum speed of around 4700rpm) but as that is consumed I can jack the speed up. My penpal Ken says that he has never changed his so it may not get used but I suppose if you were in a commercial setting and chasing maximum wheel use and/or fine finish it may be of use. (the 67500rpm is a typo, although the internal grinding spindle did run at 40,000 or 60,000rpm depending on model)
These are a good can, so $15 (while not as bargainous as the price that some have bought them) is pretty good. The new Chinese was $20.
I tipped out the kero out this morning and it was still blue. Hmm I thought. I then switched to acetone and did a vigourous shake/ swirl and then immediately poured out. That seemed to do the trick as it came out with a silvery tint. To save using litres of solvent I filtered it through some layers of paper towel between cycles
P1030139 (Medium).JPG
After 10 to 15 cycles the acetone was coming out clear so I figured that was the best I was going to do (without injecting a jet of hot steam - beyond my means).
For those not familiar with anti-seize products, they are typically a grease with metal flakes mixed in with them (usually things like aluminium, copper, nickel). They work by putting these between the two surfaces so they can not rust or gall together. Quite possibly here the grease part had been washed out, leaving the (heavy) metal flakes. The solvent would not dissolve the carrier as the grease was gone but the shaking/ swirling was enough to suspend the particles so they could be poured out.
I put some oil through to flush and it has come out the right colour this time.
Michael
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