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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
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    Trundle NSW
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    Default Kingway alignment tool

    For some time now I have been looking for a Kingway alignment tool to buy but have never been in the right place at the right time. I have spoken with Richard King in the US (who a lot of you will know from his posts on scraping on PM and whose father developed this tool) and he is about to market some new sets he has had made. Cost around $1250 US or so. If the aussie dollar was still near parity I might think about it but at its current level it seems a better idea to make one. Lots of people have made there own version (including RC) so this thread is about getting peoples thoughts before I head off to buy the various pieces needed.

    There are really only 5 pieces to the tool so will discuss them individually and everyone can let me know if they have any better ideas. Richard might even give us the benefit of his thoughts seeing as he has made a version of his own and Phil also has something similar and he might want to add his experienced thoughts to the discussion.

    The original tool came in a couple of sizes but I plan to make something in between. It is designed to have a 3 points resting on the machine for maximum stability. Two points on the long section that rests on the V or flat surface and the single ball point.

    So for the individual pieces. The information here is my summary of the various posts by people who have made there own.

    1. The 2 point way rest (it probably has a proper name) I'll machine this out of some hollow bar. Some people have use tool steel which they have hardened but given the amount I will use it I can't see this as being necessary. It will be 8 inches long for maximum stability with OD around 1.5 inches and ID around 1 inch (depending what I have in the scrap hollow bar pile...the exact dimensions are not super critical). It has a 60 degree section removed with the edges touching the V way sides having a slight ?3/32" radius. The middle 6 inches of the outside radius will be recessed as will be the middle section of the sides that contact the V way. This is to create the 2 seating points on the ends. Mounting holes will be drilled and tapped at 150 and 180 degrees as per the pictures.
    These photos will show you what I mean
    King Way Tube2.jpgKing Way Tube4.jpgKing Way Tool.jpg

    2. The ball on the end of the other side will just be a suitable sized ball bearing (around 1 to 1.5 inches) attached by threading it or will silver solder.

    3. The connecting rods. This will be some type of thick walled stainless tube of about 20mm from somewhere like Vulcan stainless in Sydney. Will get a price next week and see if they are happy to sell small quantities. Will make up a few lengths for a variety of uses.

    4. The right angle connecting clamps. Have not found a good example commercially for these but can make some if needed. If any one knows of a source let me know

    5. The leveling vials. These need to be pretty sensitive. It seems 0.0003-0.0005"/FT is recommended. These are available from Geier and Bluhm in the US at around $100 US each. They will need to be placed in a carrier with provision for adjustment. Fine adjustment knobs are available from Thorlabs.

    What do people think? Have I missed anything? Any improvements?




    IMG_3971.jpgDSCN0767.jpg
    20130320_151434 (Custom).jpgAlignment detector.jpgIMG_3651.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    South of Adelaide
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    177

    Default

    your plan seems pretty good. I want to build one of these so I will watch your progress with great interest. If you don't have any luck with vulcan let me know, we deal with them at work so they might be more willing to sell small quantity's to us.

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
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    Bendigo
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    Default

    I've also een intersted - and corresponded with Richard King some years ag about it. Richard sent me a digital copy of the manual at the time. Happy to send you a copy.
    I also came across a couple of adaptations in which the adjustable mounts seem a lot easier to make, in case you or others are interested:
    Alignment detector.jpg
    and
    Alignment detector5.jpg
    Cheers,
    Joe
    9"thicknesser/planer, 12" bench saw, 2Hp Dusty, 5/8" Drill press, 10" Makita drop saw, 2Hp Makita outer, the usual power tools and carpentry hand tools...

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
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    near Rockhampton
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    Default

    They are very simple devices and versatility is the key.. Also I found I needed a lot of different bits and pieces made up for different situations..

    I will see how I am going tomorrow and I might snap some pics of all the bits and pieces I have made... A lot of them are pretty rough, but they work

    I have the 0.0003"/12" vials.. If you use a very short main slidey bar, the sensitivity of your level increases somewhat. eg: a six inch bar would have the vial reading 0.00015" per graduation..

    In saying that the Gier and Bluhm vials come ready to go...
    Light red, the colour of choice for the discerning man.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    7,775

    Default

    Hi RC,
    Quote Originally Posted by .RC. View Post
    I have the 0.0003"/12" vials.. If you use a very short main slidey bar, the sensitivity of your level increases somewhat. eg: a six inch bar would have the vial reading 0.00015" per graduation..
    You got a sketch of that? I'm not seeing it

    Stuart

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    2,340

    Default

    Mark I'm happy to go in for some vials too if you need to buy a number to make a purchase possible or cut down freight. Just send me an email when you get to that stage.

    For the right angle and adjustable angle couplings, have a look at the types that are available for dial indicator stands etc. I've never had to buy them separately, but have a number in a drawer I use and interchange depending on what I'm doing. I guess they are available to buy however.

    Rather than the stainless rod, I'd suggest ground linear way rod. I use 8 mm, but that's probably too thin for what you want, however it's available in various diameters and small lengths off ebay. It's a cheap as chips for the amount you will need for this, and you can be sure that by nature of its accuracy everything will slide as it should when adjustment is needed. It may also save messing around with a company not especially interested in selling short lengths of stainless.

    No doubt I will eventually build one of these one day myself (hence why I will be happy to have some vials), but for now insist on bodgy efforts in an attempt to defy the laws of physics, and most of the time do, so bumble on without such a luxurious gizmo.

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    30

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    G'day Mark,

    Good thoughts and research.

    You are about six months ahead of me in your making such a tool. Like Peter I am happy to be part of a group purchase of the levels if you are willing.

    Look forward to hearing of your progress.

    Thanks

    Quentin

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
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    near Rockhampton
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stustoys View Post
    Hi RC,

    You got a sketch of that? I'm not seeing it

    Stuart
    If I had a parallel bar 12" long and placed it on a perfectly level surface and then put a 0.0003" shim under one end the bubble would move one graduation.


    If I had a parallel bar 6" long and placed it on a perfectly level surface and then put a 0.0003" shim under one end the bubble would move two graduations.
    Light red, the colour of choice for the discerning man.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Trundle NSW
    Posts
    223

    Default

    Hi Pete,

    Mark I'm happy to go in for some vials too if you need to buy a number to make a purchase possible or cut down freight. Just send me an email when you get to that stage.
    They do have discounts for multiple orders and this is the most likely purchase. Richard is this the same as yours?


    4-6010

    Description

    High precision mounted tubular level used on fine instruments and special machinery. The ground tubular vial has a sensitivity of 4 to 6 seconds per division (2 mm) equivalent to a rise of .0003 inches per foot. The brass case has an instrument black finish with special mounting lugs at each end. One (1) mounting hole is .375 inch diameter and the other elongated for adjustment purposes, located 5.812 inch C to C.
    Size: 6.37 inch x .81 inch diameter


    Drawing Available


    1+ 10+ 100+
    $102.49 $85.53 $80.18















    For the right angle and adjustable angle couplings, have a look at the types that are available for dial indicator stands etc. I've never had to buy them separately, but have a number in a drawer I use and interchange depending on what I'm doing. I guess they are available to buy however.
    I'm not sure that I have anything big enough given that I want to use about 20mm rod. Will have a look on my pile when I get home tomorrow. Joe's link looks very simple to make if I can find some knobs to suit.

    Rather than the stainless rod, I'd suggest ground linear way rod. I use 8 mm, but that's probably too thin for what you want, however it's available in various diameters and small lengths off ebay. It's a cheap as chips for the amount you will need for this, and you can be sure that by nature of its accuracy everything will slide as it should when adjustment is needed. It may also save messing around with a company not especially interested in selling short lengths of stainless.
    Good idea Pete will look into this.

    No doubt I will eventually build one of these one day myself (hence why I will be happy to have some vials), but for now insist on bodgy efforts in an attempt to defy the laws of physics, and most of the time do, so bumble on without such a luxurious gizmo.
    Part of the reason for doing this is to get an idea of the cost of making something that's functional. This is a tool that won't get used that often but would be great to have. If we can sort out the the best way of doing it then everyone who wants one can knock one up. In fact if you are going to make one way rest then once you have it nutted out its not a big deal to make a few.
    I am sure that now everyone has some basic scrapping skills and we are looking to gear up to tackle some more advanced machine reconditioning this is one of those tools that makes life easier and hopefully reduces the chances of stuffing up to badly.

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
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    near Rockhampton
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    Default

    Various bits and pieces I have made and used.. I could be persuaded to purchase another vial, I find them really handy...

    When I bought mine was before they had an online store presence, had to ring them up to pay by CC.. Also they posted to me in a medium flat rate box as two would not fit in a small flat rate box as the packaging was fairly thick..

    All these bits were made in a bit of a hurry as required, one thong I found was you need rigidity and in use you need a process where movement is all the same.... For instance if I accidentally touch the vial while taking measurements, I have to go back and start again..

    20150824_130757.jpg20150824_130622.jpg20150824_130611.jpg20150824_130602.jpg20150824_130546.jpg20150824_130519.jpg20150823_081533(0).jpg
    Light red, the colour of choice for the discerning man.

  12. #11
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    near Rockhampton
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    Default

    Light red, the colour of choice for the discerning man.

  13. #12
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    Jul 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by .RC. View Post
    If I had a parallel bar 12" long and placed it on a perfectly level surface and then put a 0.0003" shim under one end the bubble would move one graduation.


    If I had a parallel bar 6" long and placed it on a perfectly level surface and then put a 0.0003" shim under one end the bubble would move two graduations.
    Yeah but......the first measurement has an error of 0.0003"/12" the second measurement is as error of 0.0006"/12". so it would want to move 2 gradations. You've doubled the movement by doubling the error.... havent you?

    I think I see what you're saying about being careful about what length you're measuring over, but 0.0003"/12" is 0.0003"/12" and I cant see a way of changing that. Am I just not getting it?

    Stuart

  14. #13
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    near Rockhampton
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stustoys View Post
    Yeah but......the first measurement has an error of 0.0003"/12" the second measurement is as error of 0.0006"/12". so it would want to move 2 gradations. You've doubled the movement by doubling the error.... havent you?
    Yes that is correct, but the point I am making is to be aware of that, lets say you make your testing bar four inches long... All of a sudden your between graduation measurement is 0.0001" rise/fall over four inches... That is a very very small amount and you might start seeing these wild movements in your vial and you might be thinking that each graduation being 0.0003 means your bar is rising or falling 0.0003" when it actually isn't.

    I started chasing my tail when I was seeing these big changes in the vial bubble when using a short bar... I wanted perfection.. Eventually I gave up as the amounts it was measuring was so tiny..

    In reality everyone is probably smarter then me and will not fall for the same trap...
    Light red, the colour of choice for the discerning man.

  15. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
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    Alphen aan den Rijn, Netherlands
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    67

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhovel View Post
    I've also een intersted - and corresponded with Richard King some years ag about it. Richard sent me a digital copy of the manual at the time. Happy to send you a copy.
    Hello Jan,
    I would also be interested in a copy if you don't mind. Thanks!

    Peter Heuts

  16. #15
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    Mar 2014
    Location
    South of Adelaide
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    I had some thinking time at work today and came up with a rough design for a clamp. Ive attached a drawing of it as a pdf, what are your thoughts everyone? I could make them fairly easily on the CNC mill at work. I'd be in on a group buy of vials to.
    90 CLAMP.PDF

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