Thread: Lathe safety (off topic prevention)

Hi Moby,

I suspect I have a lot to learn and look forward to doing the course. The argument that CFA cannot provide a safe workplace to their volunteers because of the nature of what they do is a convenient one at best. While we rely heavily on PPC which is a last resort under the heirachy of control measures, this is due to the nature of our work. We still enjoy (statistically) one of the safest workplaces. This is due in part to our training, systems of work, SOP's, maintained fitness standards and the strigent selection process before getting into the job ensuring the people they employ are best suited to the environment they work.

The resistance to include volunteers as workers under the worplace act comes not only from CFA but also the body that represents CFA's volunteers. To quote spiderman… With great power comes great responsibility. I suspect they fear that with such a change, volunteers will also be open to procecusion under such an act if they fail in their responsibilities as "workers" Big deal I say, I face that possibility every day but I don't really think about it, I just work safely and look after the safety of myself and my fellow workers.

I believe that CFA are worried that such an ownus or responsibility placed on their volunteers will scare many away and their already dwindling volunteer numbers will further be reduced. But for volunteers to have the tools to work safely, they will need proper training and proper PPC. Most of which have this but not all do and so it will put further pressure on CFA to provide better training and equipment to their volunteers, as they should.

In the past, our employer from time to time have supplied us with equipment that has been idetified as having some safety issues. Mostly these get sorted out through our representative body and either a compromise is reached, or it goes to arbitration to be ruled on. On other occasions they have just taken it off us and given it to a volunteer station to use, even if a PIN has been issued on it. Sufice to say, most of the time these volunteers are non the wiser as to the history or reason why they got this new equipment. My employer will no longer be able to do this if volunteers are included in the workplace legislation.

Sorry, so far off topic it's not funny.

Simon

Simon I have a good mate who has been a training officer in the fire service and is an inspector now. I'm a surveyor with over 30 years experience & have worked for many years in plenty of very remote areas and have had to be largely self reliant with only myself and a chainman. So I have a pretty good understanding the hazards & issues you guys face & I'm very thankful that there are volunteers who will step up.

What you say about perceived liability vs actual liability is a problem for many volunteer associations and it does scare people off from volunteering. When it becomes an actual liability from not ensuring machinery is compliant or not discharging the duties of a PCBU as it was in my case you simply must walk away.

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

When it becomes an actual liability from not ensuring machinery is compliant or not discharging the duties of a PCBU as it was in my case you simply must walk away.

Not always easy to do when you're working for an emergency service.

Simon

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

One court case up here in Townsville found the officers of a gymnastics association failed in their WHS obligations to "other persons."

http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/__data...-tga-death.pdf
http://www.mslawyers.com.au/Download...g%20Bodies.pdf

Wow the deceased was doing illegal drugs, kids moved the mats and the business is still liable...

Like I say we are now a risk adverse country... But strangely killing 2000 people a year on the roads is all OK..

Originally Posted by .RC.

But strangely killing 2000 people a year on the roads is all OK..

I don't think anyone accepts that 2000 road deaths a year is "OK", just look at the huge efforts put into various road safety campaigns. As far as penalties go, the provisions for things like manslaughter, culpable driving etc, you can go to jail for a very long time. Culpable driving causing death has a maximum penalty of 20 years jail. ( I looked it up )

What I find curious is the amount of increased attention given to OH&S after the changes to the law, which made company directors liable. All of a sudden it's number one priority.

Ray

Originally Posted by RayG

I don't think anyone accepts that 2000 road deaths a year is "OK", just look at the huge efforts put into various road safety campaigns.

True, but if they were serious reducing the speed limit to 80kph everywhere would stop a lot of deaths as they found out during WW2 when speed limits were lowered to conserve fuel...

This is the paradox of OHS.... An individual is told something is dangerous and prosecuted, when they could point out the roads and prove how easy it would be to reduce risk and ask why are they exempt from OHS regulations?

I am waiting for the day the government is sued through OHS laws by a person who has had a car accident.

I was once involved in installing a system to automatically regulate forklift speeds, the system had RFID tags buried in the floor which told the forklift what speed to set the governor to, in pedestrian areas with mixed traffic, like loading areas where you had truck drivers and such mixed with forklift traffic, the speed limit was 5 kph, in other areas where pedestrian traffic was prohibited the limit was 8 kph.

And yet, you could walk out of the same factory, and at the front door there is a pedestrian crossing with cars doing 60 kph within feet of unprotected pedestrian traffic..., and no safety barriers and no hi-vis clothing... the contrast between one environment and the other is stark. We live with double standards.

Ray

Originally Posted by .RC.

I am waiting for the day the government is sued through OHS laws by a person who has had a car accident.

I have attended many motor vehicle collisions. Most are not as a result of an accident. They are invariably the result of somone doing the wrong thing. They are an incident, not a accident.

Within the capacity of my occupation I frequently exceed the posted speed limit, drive through red traffic control signals, drive on the wrong side of the road, and fail to stop at stop signs. In 17 years I have never been involved in a collision. I have however recieved extensive driver training and my situational awareness is probably better than most. Reducing the speed limit is only one part of the picture in making our roads safer. Peoples attitudes seems to be the biggest issue.

Simon

Originally Posted by RayG

We live with double standards.

Ray

Exactly what I mean Ray.. I do not want speed limits reduced, but at the same token where I am here should I employ anyone it would mean an instant trip to jail with mandatory sessions with Bubba as punishment...

Not that it is dangerous here, but a person whose only exposure to what they perceive as danger is an errant photocopier that randomly spits paper at people would think that where I am here is an extremely dangerous place... And to that sort of person it probably is as they have no concept of danger any more.. They would walk along a street and fall down an easy to see hole and automatically blame someone else as they think they should not have to see danger, danger should just not be there in their mind...

Originally Posted by .RC.

Exactly what I mean Ray.. I do not want speed limits reduced, but at the same token where I am here should I employ anyone it would mean an instant trip to jail with mandatory sessions with Bubba as punishment...

Not that it is dangerous here, but a person whose only exposure to what they perceive as danger is an errant photocopier that randomly spits paper at people would think that where I am here is an extremely dangerous place... And to that sort of person it probably is as they have no concept of danger any more.. They would walk along a street and fall down an easy to see hole and automatically blame someone else as they think they should not have to see danger, danger should just not be there in their mind...

The danger there is that the casual visitor would be so shocked by sight of the pink Monarch, and walk straight into a running G&L HBM

The safety world is a strange place these days, it's no longer acceptable to rely on people's experience and common sense. I know of an example where a fuel tanker driver caused an incident because he forgot the parking brakes while running petrol to fill an underground petrol tank. The investigation concluded that it ought not be possible to open the fuel valves unless the brakes were engaged, so flip over guards were installed on the fleet to automatically engage the brakes when the guard was lifted to access the fuel discharge points. The next problem that arose was the incident where the flip over system failed and the brakes came on while the tanker was driving down the road. And so it goes, one fix leads to another problem and the fix for an unsafe act creates another unsafe situation... at some point you have to rely on people not being completely stupid.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for making the workplace as safe as possible... so long as it's not just a case of moving the problem elsewhere.

Ray

Simon,

Aren't the general public "wonderful" when the lights and bells go on. Most have NFI.

Ray,

How do you protect DH's from themselves. Let them be culled by their own actions from the gene pool I say. Where else would we get the Darwin Award nominees from.

Yes, an employer should be required to provide a safe workplace; but the employee should have to provide common sense. Trouble is that nobody is held responsible for their own actions.

Ken

lol sliding down the road all locked up in a tanker would sure wake you up.

At the risk of going more than a little OT and without going to to stories about former employers I offer couple of car safety related stories.

In my ancap 5 star VF, you cant take the handbrake off without having your foot on the brake.. that would be unsafe right? and we couldn't have that!............ ok fair enough.......... guess what happens when you hit the accelerator while the handbrake is on?

Talking about self culling of the gene pool. I think this video and its comments say much about the world we live in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzMTvgx3R5I


Stuart

... at some point you have to rely on people not being completely stupid.

You can't make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious!

Gentlemen there are a number of issues in play here

1 In regards to the Victorian Guidance note / flyer which is attached is basically to give an employer some semblance of idea of what the risks of a lathe are, there are too many cases of managers . owners of companies that have inherited a factory with one of these monsters down the back and sent some numpty down that has seen a mate use one

2 this guidance note was introduced as a direct result of a decapitation involving a 3/8 bar hanging out the back of a lathe running at top speed yep it happened

3 there had been a de gloving incident as well regarding a lead screw it happened

4 there are a lot of educated safety professionals that have never seen a machine shop before coming through the education system manual machines are an an anathema i.e. what do you mean you open the door stick the piece of steel in and it drops out a shute at the bottom doesn't it ?

5 The trade is dead to most people now it has not been taught in secondary school in Victoria for some twenty years or longer so from my perspective at least they got off there backside and put some recommendations down on paper.

These accidents will continue to happen and maybe happen more frequently now as more and more lathes are disposed of at auctions etc as the manufacturing base crumbels but I'm not sure how the authorities will handle that one when a death occurs
Even Machinery house offer schools pack lathes with lead screw and chuck cover additions

I don't know where it all will lead but one thing is for certain

We aint heard the last of this one

Bruce