Thread: New lathe selection help

So today I drove to Canberra to have a look at the Herless, first impression was that it was huge compared to my current lathe. Potentially too big. I went ahead and tried my best to give it a good once over and observed the following.

The ways along the entire bed looked to be in good condition. I moved the saddle back and fwd repeatedly and could not notice any stiffening or tightening along the way.
IMG_1999.jpg

The saddle looked to be reasonable, the flat t slot section of the cross slide had a few dings etc perhaps where people had been placing tools, there were a few brass looking items on the lathe that I couldn't identify, (oilers perhaps?) they can be seen in this picture:
IMG_2002.jpg
Also, I am fairly sure that machine head screw in the cross slide isn't standard.

Model and build year:
IMG_2004.jpg

Other thoughts, The compound was extremely stiff to turn, It was able to be moved, I suspected the gibs were way to tight. The cross slide power feed engagement felt like it could use some adjustment (perhaps the mechanism was worn). The lever would feel like it clicked all the way in however the cross slide would not move, then you would repeat and it would. The first time I thought it was something I was doing, however I couldn't get it to reliably repeatedly work. The longitudinal power feed must be on a clutch mechanism? I could hold back the manual handle with a small amount of finger pressure whilst the feed was engaged and the feed would stop, I was assuming it would take a bit more pressure than that. When the cross feed was engaged I applied the same pressure to its handle and it did not stall. The saddle locking screw would tighten, however, it had no effect on locking the saddle.

All in all I am glad I had a look. I think a few of these problems with the lathe are definitely the operator and it did need a clean (no big deal).

I cant get past the thought it is too big, I turned down a small piece of steel on it, and one thing i noticed was the lack of feedback I felt. I am sure this is what other people are searching for in a lathe. I cannot see myself turning anything of size where I would need a lathe this big, I have heard people say you can turn small items on a large lathe but you cant turn large items on a small lathe. I was thinking that it would be difficult to turn small items on this lathe, the biggest item I am looking to turn is flywheels (one of the reasons I would like the the powered cross feed) and I dont think they will ever get bigger than 200-250mm (max). I would love peoples thoughts on lathe sizing.

I think the C8/C10 might be the right size for me (it certainly meets my specification requests), I wish there was one nearby I could have a look/feel of.

Thanks

Michael

Edit: I did go through a heap of different gearing combinations, I am sure I did not get them all, but from what I used it worked fine with no noticeable clunking or other noises etc. Also, If I could have read a manual or something for this specific lathe it would have helped.

Well If you decide to get the Herless I would be happy to help unload and set it up I have an engine crane and level

Michael, this one on Gumtree could be ok. It's only about half hour from some of us here in the Richmond/Penrith area. Could have a look for you as it's in your budget.

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/winma...the/1081892500

What is the Lantaine lathe like?????? I have seen what can be produced on one of them ..... A 7.25" (I think as it's too long ago) Flying Scot loco build by an old fellow who was the Welding Storeman at a Sydney TAFE College. Sadly he has now gone to the big machine shop in the sky!

From my memory from back in the earlier 1980s the lathe was a belt driven spindle, back geared, threaded spindle about the size of those C8 ones. This gentleman gave praise to the lathe in those days for a home workshop.

On the down side, I did have contact with an apprentice in very early 80s from Bearing Importers from around Sydney somewhere who told me of some of the dodgy things they did to some of these lathes to get them to spec of some sort and out the door. One thing to get the tailstock back to centre height was to put some blobs of weld on the baseplate and grind them to suit. In the life of most of these lathes sold the owners most likely would never know!!

Your call if you are interested. I'm not in favour of the threaded spindle nose. I think they were hardened ways but would have to look see but for what you are doing it most likely would do the trick.

Originally Posted by michaelnowill

............................
I cant get past the thought it is too big, I turned down a small piece of steel on it, and one thing i noticed was the lack of feedback I felt. I am sure this is what other people are searching for in a lathe. I cannot see myself turning anything of size where I would need a lathe this big, I have heard people say you can turn small items on a large lathe but you cant turn large items on a small lathe. I was thinking that it would be difficult to turn small items on this lathe, the biggest item I am looking to turn is flywheels (one of the reasons I would like the the powered cross feed) and I dont think they will ever get bigger than 200-250mm (max). I would love peoples thoughts on lathe sizing.
............

Yes you can turn small pieces on a large lathe. But unless its in the price class of a Hardinge AND well maintained and looked after, its probably not going to be much joy doing so. Tactile feedback is one of the reasons some people have several lathes of different size. If you are into real small stuff a watchmaker lathe or a small Schaublin are hard to beat. With a 9" or 10" lathe you can build many steam engine and IC engine and hot air models, including flywheel. Also keep in mind that gap bed lathes like the Myford are really only 7" swing, but can handle a much larger flywheel in the gap. If anything larger you envisage is a monster flywheel every second year and your space is limited, you may be better off farming that job out for a fee to a larger workshop.

If you can only have one lathe, the recommendation is usually to choose it (within your room's size and weight limitations) as big and heavy a lathe as possible. Also consider that over time, the size of your workpieces may likely grow. So what, if you outgrow it you can always sell a smaller lathe, there is great demand for smaller lathes. Large and heavy industrial lathes are very cheap, they sell by the kilo scrap metal price even if still in good nick. Why? Because there is no market, too many industrial shops go into liquidation and the machines to the scrap yard.

Originally Posted by michaelnowill

I cant get past the thought it is too big, I turned down a small piece of steel on it, and one thing i noticed was the lack of feedback I felt. I am sure this is what other people are searching for in a lathe.

Actually, no.

I dial in a cut, engage the power feed, disengage, measure.

I do not give a damn about 'feedback' all I care about is, the tool is cutting nicely and the depth of cut is repeatable. Plus surface finish etc but that's a function of tool, material, DOC, RPM, machine rigidity (see mass), spindle & bearings, general wear and how you twist your magic lucky charm.....

'Feedback' is for tiny lathes where the tool is hand fed because there isn't sufficient power or rigidity to let the lathe do the work. Pee on that, the last thing I want to do is manually feed the tool into the job, I engage the power feed & step back out of the shower of blue chips coming off.......

Only you can decide if the lathe is too big but, as a friend of mine owns one and routinely machines stuff in the 1mm to 3mm size, it isn't too big for the fine stuff.

Of course, RC's Monarch 10EE is better for small fiddly bits, as is my Chipmaster. But you're not going to get new ones of *those* for less than a house mortgage, used ones are rare, and I can tell you from personal experience, neither will give you 'feedback' except by breaking he tool, the workpiece or you, if you get things wrong.......

PDW

Reasonable report on the lathe - some of those stiffness/ tightness issues will go away with a good clean, lubrication and a bit of adjustment. A lathe that size is unlikely to have a clutch, so the feed issue could be something like a pin having sheared or a grubscrew coming loose. You mentioned a lack of feedback while cutting - that is how it should be. The stuff you think of as feedback is actually the lathe struggling (either because of power or rigidity (or both). Provided that you are not taking cuts that are too deep or interrupted, the lathe should just motor on. If you can feel the lathe shuddering then the chances are the tool post is flexing/ moving around and that means your finish is probably not as good as it could be.

On size, my lathe has a 12" swing to it (I bought my lathe in the same way that Richard did, in that all I had were pictures, so maybe we are biased and like to live the adventurous life...). Anyway, the other day I turned up some discs that were 8" and 10" respectively (200mm and 250mm). While the lathe did it (and the finish was fine), DOC had to be small because of the torque required and the tooling was mounted in odd ways because of where I was trying to reach (I was making a belt pulley). If you need to turn large things, then get a machine a little bit up your sleeve if you can as it will make life easier.
You will find that if you wish to turn small parts on a lathe like the one you looked at (trust me, it's not big) that getting/ making a collet chuck or a smaller chuck will help. I made an ER collet chuck when I had a lathe that size and it made making small parts that much easier - it was one of those things I wish I'd done earlier in hindsight and if a part was under 20mm then that was the chuck I used.

End of the day it is your choice, but when that lathe was built it could well have been copied almost directly from a successful design from else where. These days the new (hobby type) lathes that can be bought have been shaved down to save material (cost), so even on a new lathe of the same size I suspect the Herless would be stiffer (which is what you want).

Michael

That Lantaine is almost as heavy as the Herless and about the same size and ergonomics therefore same feel (or lack of). Yet it isn't camlock spindle. It's even more expensive. No way I'd prefer it over the Herless, it isn't in the same class. I remember those Lantaine machines when they first arrived, I used to play with them in the importer's shop.

As for CBA's comments, sure you can do the occasional bigger work on a machine like a Myford with a gap bed.

Provided you do it in back gear and don't take more than 0.020" or so depth of cut that is...... God help you if you want to machine something longer than the distance between centres and it's bigger than 5/8" diameter too.

And, note a Myford *has* a gap bed. A lot of the small copies of an Emco Compact 8 don't have a gap bed, cheap Chinese lathes *with* gap beds are notorious for how poorly the gap is fitted so once removed there's a good to excellent chance it won't go back properly. Quality lathes with gap beds, the gap bed piece is scraped into proper bearing with the bed *then* ground/scraped to the ways. The Chinese lathes machine, bolt down and grind. See comments in other threads WRT 'torque shimming', a really cheap and nasty way to attach parts to a bed......

FWIW I've looked at those Sieg lathes, the smaller ones anyway. I'm not impressed with their build quality. The bigger C10 is described as suitable for light industrial use. In some marketing person's fantasies perhaps. It looks like a cheap knockoff of an Emco V10P, not even up to the capacity of a Maximat 11, which is 10X the build quality (and 5X the price) and *still* not a light industrial lathe. I have a pristine Maximat 11, so I know.

I understand budgets, that's why I don't own a new or fully reconditioned Monarch 10EE lathe (yet). Passing up a good used Herless to buy a new smaller Chinese lathe is, IMO, a really bad decision. But if that's what you want to do, go for it.

PDW

Thank you all for the positive comments and words of wisdom. I was looking in the shed, taking some measurements and it occurred to me that I had another option available which I hadnt thought of. My main concern was the turning of small pieces on the large lathe. I already had a small lathe with tooling which I just assumed I would sell. I decided as the small C2 lathe is worth maybe $400-500 at best with tooling that I should keep it. I rang the owner of the Herless and explained my thoughts, we spoke price and a deal was struck at $1600. I believe that is a fair amount of machine for that price. Now I just need to organise the logistics of getting it home. I am hoping to borrow a ute, the roads are pretty brutal around here and I think a trailer would have too much bounce for a piece of precision machinery.

Again, Thanks

Michael

Hey mate,

I just saw your concerns about size for the herless. Whilst the c10 is lighter, I am not sure it would be that much smaller (haven't seen one up close though). This link has some photos of one being set up: http://www.usinages.com/threads/tour-sieg-sc10.72716/

Here are some further links to c8 which may be a better fit if you are concerned about size:

http://www.mini-lathe.com/reviews/Lathes/Sieg_C8/C8.htm (I also had brief correspondance with frank who authors this site and he had entirely praise for the c8, to which he later added the variable motor and control of the sc8)

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/thr...I-now-have-one

http://www.usinages.com/threads/tour-sieg-c8-sc8.71089/

Cheers,

Mick.

Edit:

Disregard. Sorry, forgot to hit refresh.

Congratulations on your decision. You went the same way I did by going second hand. If your experience is similar to mine you won't have any regrets.

Originally Posted by michaelnowill

the roads are pretty brutal around here and I think a trailer would have too much bounce for a piece of precision machinery.

the weight of the lathe will stop the bounce...its all relative to speed

should also be a lot easier to get on n off the trailer also with probably better tie down anchor spots. Utes usually dont have good tie down anchor spots

Remember they are extremely top heavy and will fall over surprisingly easily...

Make a plan on how to load and unload, then go over the plan and make a better plan...

We do not want to read in here how it tipped over on you breaking your leg in the process when you were unloading it..

Thank you very much for your offer. I did not pay much attention to the stand the lathe was on, but from my glances it seemed to be a bit bellow standard and required some attention. Perhaps I could take you up on your offer once I have got the stand sorted. I own multiple levels, however, they are all the type meant for building and I am not too sure there accuracy will be up to scratch for this.

Michael

Originally Posted by welder

Well If you decide to get the Herless I would be happy to help unload and set it up I have an engine crane and level

Originally Posted by eskimo

the weight of the lathe will stop the bounce...its all relative to speed

should also be a lot easier to get on n off the trailer also with probably better tie down anchor spots. Utes usually dont have good tie down anchor spots

You raise a valid point. I am going to call the owner tomorrow and get some more specific measurements of the overall dimensions. I have a feeling it will fit in the back of my 120 series prado with the rear seats removed (154cm), between the rear tie down points and the seat mounting points there would be a heap of places to secure the lathe too. The hard bit would be man handling the lathe into it. I am thinking some 1" wooden dowel could be use 'Egyptian style' to help roll it in. The advantage of using the prado is that is that it has self leveling airbags in the rear. The road between Nowra and Canberra was absolutely terrible when I drove it on Sunday. I am thinking I will have to go the long way "+ another hour" to avoid any bad patches.

Originally Posted by .RC.

Remember they are extremely top heavy and will fall over surprisingly easily...

Make a plan on how to load and unload, then go over the plan and make a better plan...

We do not want to read in here how it tipped over on you breaking your leg in the process when you were unloading it..

Point taken and thank you for your concern. I will be seeking the opinion of everyone present as to whether it is safe to proceed before we start. I am imaging this model to weigh about 300-400kg with the chuck and tailstock removed.

Man handling 300-400kg in to the back of a Prado?

Trailer sounds good to me, even if you have to add an hour to your trip