Thread: On the LEVEL.

The CTC ones are good value, and if you want a less sensitive level like the Starrett 98-8 just pick one up used.
I use the Stabila carpenters level first, then a Rabone (same accuracy as the Starrett) and then the CTC. I find going from the Stabila to the CTC far to much of a gap and the bubble is usually off the clock.

For many years I just used a Stabila level and all was fine and the lathe turned true. It wasn't until the Rabone turned up cheap and CTC started selling that I bought the others.

Dave

Been looking at a few old ones for sale and find that not all levels have graduated markings on the vials.
Next question.What is the most useful length to have? I think 6 or 8 ".
Also noticed a lot of levels on Ebay for more than the new price direct from Starrett.Do people just not look?

Hi localele,

I have a Starrett 98-12 I bought a couple years back S/H from the US. I mostly use it to level my lathe and so only 6 inches of the 12 actually get used!

I have often thought that maybe I should get something a little more sensitive, like the CTC tools one but at this stage I get more than satisfactory results using my 98 for levelling.

Cheers,

Simon

> Been looking at a few old ones foe sale and find that not all levels have graduated markings on the vials.

If you only wanted to align machine tools, what for do you need markings? You use the level for comparisons, not for absolute measurements. And if one day you get a rare job where you need absolute readings, just put a small steel ruler beside the vial. Metric vials are calibrated 2mm, meaning if it is a 0.02mm/m level 2mm on the vial equate to 0.02mm/m off level, or if it is a 0.5mm/m level then 2mm on the vial equal 0.5mm/m off level. Old Imperial levels are calibrated 1/10", new imperial levels are calibrated 2.5mm.


> Next question.What is the most useful length to have? I think 6 or 8 ".

The largest machine tool I ever need to align is my 10" Hercus 260. My other tools are all smaller. Therefore for me a 4" level seemed ideal. You can always devise a contraption to extend a short level, like putting it onto a parallel bar. But you cannot easily chop a level that is too long to fit what you need to level.

I bougt a 4" Rabone off eBay many years ago, for $30. Rabone's look exactly like Starretts, you can easily confuse them by not reading the makers name. Thy are just as good as Starretts, I believe Rabone were a license from Starrett. But I found Rabones sell for much less because people do not know them, or maybe because people think Rabone's are carpenters levels. You can read a 4" Starret or Rabone or any other generic machinist level of around 0.5mm/m division down to 0.1mm accuracy. If it has 0.5mm/m per 2.5mm bubble movement, 0.1mm/m is about 0.5mm bubble movement and the vial is polished good enough to resolve this. That is good enough to ensure a bench lathe bed is untwisted, fine adjustment is then by test cuts.

Chris

Originally Posted by Stustoys

Hi Chris,
Not so sure about that.
Wouldn't it be fair to say if the bed is level* yet the lathe is cutting a taper, the problem isn't the lathe bed?....Now you may choose to fix the problem by twisting the bed, but that's not the real problem.

Now if everything else is correct and the operator knows what he is doing**, taking a test cut should level* the bed

Stuart, I see what you mean. For smaller bench lathes, say up to some 11" SWING, I look at it this way: using a standard accuracy machinist level (polished vial with 0.5mm/m divisions) I can level a lathe bed to 0.1mm/m, since that is a bubble deviation of 0.5mm that can be seen by the eye and that can be resolved by the vial. Now that is fairly close to say the bed is essentially untwisted, and fine adjustment can be safely done by test cuts only.

But this only works reliably if the headstock to bed alignment of the lathe in question is undisturbed. If there is any doubt about this, yes me too will recommend to use a precision level instead. I believe though, that in +95% of all cases it is safe to assume the headstock adjustment has not been tampered with. And if one owned his lathe from new, one can be 100% sure about this.

By the way, once a lathe bed is levelled to about 0.1mm/m, it is interesting how tiny little twisting force is needed to throw this level out by more than 0.1mm/m in either direction: simply press with one finger sideways onto your clamped down tailstock. You will be surprised, if not shocked.

Another thing or two I learned about high precision levels is this:
- depending on where one stands on the floor may cause changes of the level reading.
- the heat from your hand can cause the level to read differently
- as can heat from sun. Precision levelling a lathe bed really only makes sense if you also have an aircon in your workshop.

Chris

my CDCO level seems to better than the one I got from CTC

Originally Posted by eskimo

my CDCO level seems to better than the one I got from CTC

In what way is it better? Overall fit and finish or in the bubble department.

Originally Posted by localele

In what way is it better? Overall fit and finish or in the bubble department.

finish, appearance and it doesnt rock...... when its flat..unlike the the CTC one????

Thanks Chris, RC, I see where you are coming from now.

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

Another thing or two I learned about high precision levels is this:

Something along those lines (I can't remember now if I was told by a toolmaker* or I read it somewhere).

"If you're to lazy to stand up get a chair. DO NOT lean on the machine."

Stuart

*thumbs up Tom if it was you

Originally Posted by Stustoys

T

"If you're to lazy to stand up get a chair. DO NOT lean on the machine."

yep.....
even moving around on a 6inch slab floor on top of reactive clay soil can make the bubble move

For bed leveling, 0.02mm/m is the right resolution. Why? Well, look at the standard what it asks for.
A good length is 200 mm, as the standard, in some places, ask for the support points to be 200 mm apart.


Nick

Well it is funny how things turn out. I bought a 98-4 off a friend today(tool dealer) and then 10min. later I won a 98-6 on Ebay that I had a small bid on. Should have waited before I rang him but didn't expect it to go so low. So 2 nice Starretts for under $200 delivered to my door. I suppose I will use them to check each other and then start working my way around the machinery.

Originally Posted by localele

Well it is funny how things turn out. I bought a 98-4 off a friend today(tool dealer) and then 10min. later I won a 98-6 on Ebay that I had a small bid on. Should have waited before I rang him but didn't expect it to go so low. So 2 nice Starretts for under $200 delivered to my door. I suppose I will use them to check each other and then start working my way around the machinery.

Uhh,
your lucky guy. I'm on the market for one if you don't want to keep two then PM me . i'd happy to take one off your hand .
cheers
Peter

The Ebay US seems to have a few and is where I got the 98-6 for $60 inc delivery of $17.95. I did get some shipping quotes of $47.95 for the same size tool from different sellers. The smaller one (pictured below)I bought locally and paid $135 inc postage of $15. Funnily enough that is more than Starrett's list price in the US but no postage allowance.

During this I emailed a price and availability request to Starrett Australia and got this reply-
"Thank you for your email; we will have stock of this item towards the end of January 2013. As this would be a cash sale your price is $250.00 + GST and freight would be an additional $15.00 + GST. Payment would have to be made via credit card prior to sending the goods out."
That was for a 98-6 which has a list price on the Us website of Starrett of $118. Figure that one out and see who is on the LEVEL.