Thread: How to lock morse taper

A ring welded to the top of the MT tang. A wedge system that feeds in from the DP spindle and quill slot from both sides, picking up the ring and locking it upwards with a thru bolt pulling the two sections together. All this has to fit inside the spindle slot while allowing it to turn inside the quill. The welded on ring will make it difficult to remove the taper tho.

It may be feasible to use for plastic and ali but not for anything harder I would think. Having said that I machined out the cross slide casting for my Nuttall Lathe to repair a crack in the circular T-Slot the compound attaches to. All I did was enlarge the hole that the bolt heads go into to slide into the T-Slot and add clearance so I could fit a large plate on each side to provide a bigger clamping surface than square bolt heads. The bigger hole was to get the plates in. Not much precision required except for a flat surface for the plates to rest against. From memory it was all done with vertical cutting only.

Dean

Originally Posted by phaser

The trouble there is, I would need to buy a mill to make that tool for the lathe, and it wouldn't work very well with my lathe cos it's a Colchester about 120 years old.

https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Vertical-Mill-Slides

As stated i dont have any problems at all milling on a drill press (with an XY table, about $400 from Hafco). The drill does have a 2HP which probably helps.
https://www.woodworkforums.com/f170/c...-drill-175745/

Since first installing the MT2 collet holder it has not come out once and i have the machine working literally all day long on occasions.

I can climb mill, conventional mill and slot no dramas. Maximum DOC in alloy is upto the diameter of the tool although i generally run about 1/2-3/4 dia deep to keep the noise down. I havent noticed much difference with different helix angles etc although i am fairly new at milling. I do not use tools larger than 8mm in this machine as a general rule and it loves solid carbide cutters.
You may find roughing cutters help in your situation if the setup is not as rigid.

I was pocketing some hard steel recently and had to take a phone call, was standing outside the shed about 4m away from the machine and could still feel the ground rumble under my feet as it chomped through the steel
(climb milling 3mm DOC 4mm wide with an old/chipped 8mm 4 flute solid carbide bit, 1045 steel)
Needless to say the morse taper did not separate.


I have done some milling in the lathe and it sucks. I would much rather spend the effort setting a decent drill press up to do the work instead.

Originally Posted by andrew_mx83

As stated i dont have any problems at all milling on a drill press (with an XY table, about $400 from Hafco). The drill does have a 2HP which probably helps.
https://www.woodworkforums.com/f170/c...-drill-175745/ . . . . . ..

There's also bit of difference between your table and a $100 X-Y vice.

Originally Posted by andrew_mx83

As stated i dont have any problems at all milling on a drill press (with an XY table, about $400 from Hafco). The drill does have a 2HP which probably helps.
https://www.woodworkforums.com/f170/c...-drill-175745/

Since first installing the MT2 collet holder it has not come out once and i have the machine working literally all day long on occasions.

I can climb mill, conventional mill and slot no dramas. Maximum DOC in alloy is upto the diameter of the tool although i generally run about 1/2-3/4 dia deep to keep the noise down. I havent noticed much difference with different helix angles etc although i am fairly new at milling. I do not use tools larger than 8mm in this machine as a general rule and it loves solid carbide cutters.
You may find roughing cutters help in your situation if the setup is not as rigid.

I was pocketing some hard steel recently and had to take a phone call, was standing outside the shed about 4m away from the machine and could still feel the ground rumble under my feet as it chomped through the steel
(climb milling 3mm DOC 4mm wide with an old/chipped 8mm 4 flute solid carbide bit, 1045 steel)
Needless to say the morse taper did not separate.


I have done some milling in the lathe and it sucks. I would much rather spend the effort setting a decent drill press up to do the work instead.

You haven't had the taper self-free *yet*.

Unless that DP has some form of lock to keep the taper shank locked into the quill, it is going to release sooner or later. I haven't read all the posts here because frankly my care factor is low when it comes to people claiming stuff that goes against what is well known for Morse tapers and real world experience.

My conclusion is that you have been very lucky so far and that you aren't really putting any serious side load on the cutter. The fact that you're holding the end mill in a drill chuck is another giveaway that you're not really doing much. Those chucks CANNOT effectively hold an end mill. Nobody who knows what they're doing does this, the sole exception being counterboring where the load is all axial.

Sooner or later you are either going to make history by being the first person known to have this work, or you're going to have a really bad machine crash. I'm betting on option 2.

But - carry on. As long as you're making an informed decision as to what risks you're prepared to take, no worries, I don't really care. I do expect you to post details of the crash, when (or if, being optimistic) it happens. Please keep your eye protectors on, though. Just in case....

As for milling in the lathe, I quite agree. Its only saving grace is that you can lock a collet chuck into the headstock via a drawbar to hold your cutters securely.

Whatever.....

PDW

Originally Posted by PDW

You haven't had the taper self-free *yet*.

Unless that DP has some form of lock to keep the taper shank locked into the quill, it is going to release sooner or later. I haven't read all the posts here because frankly my care factor is low when it comes to people claiming stuff that goes against what is well known for Morse tapers and real world experience.

My conclusion is that you have been very lucky so far and that you aren't really putting any serious side load on the cutter. The fact that you're holding the end mill in a drill chuck is another giveaway that you're not really doing much. Those chucks CANNOT effectively hold an end mill. Nobody who knows what they're doing does this, the sole exception being counterboring where the load is all axial.

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While I agree it's not a good idea if you haven't read the posts then please don't make assumptions as facts.

Originally Posted by BobL

While I agree it's not a good idea if you haven't read the posts then please don't make assumptions as facts.

Well said.

PDW, I looks as though it's working for him. You make a good point though. If the MT let's go while the table is under CNC, there is a potential crash waiting to happen... But it is working!

I use to have a lot of problems with MT slipping until I watched Mrpete22 on you tube. He recommends they are installed clean of dust and free of oil. I can't say I have had one come loose since then... But I do not mill without a drawbar and collet.

Originally Posted by PDW

The fact that you're holding the end mill in a drill chuck is another giveaway that you're not really doing much. Those chucks CANNOT effectively hold an end mill.

Originally Posted by andrew_mx83

I bashed the ER32 holder in pretty hard, it's on an MT2 taper with no drawbar and has not yet come loose. i wouldnt want to try and get it off though!!

Hmmmm.....

I do agree its not the right machine to be a real mill. Nothing beats mass and rigidity. But as a start into CNC it is brilliant and cheap place to work from.

Ew

Hey i never said it was the perfect solution, sure a drawbar is the ideal setup but that is not to say it cannot be made to work other ways. Just trying to balance the discussion with some of my own real world experience.

PDW, i checked the computer tonight and the machine has 1270 hours on it. 1269.75 of that are with the ER collet holder which i repeat has not come out once.
I dont know how many hours are needed until it is considered working and safe, but i must be getting close.
Tonight i made a slight programming error and was slotting 6mm deep, i figure that is a decent amount of side loading. I can break 8mm solid carbide tools without the collet holder coming out.

If you would like to specify some parameters for a cut (tool dia, DOC, type of cut, material, etc) that you consider to be working it hard i will happily don the safety glasses and give it a go. I will report back the results or maybe even take a video.



The drill chuck came out twice under cnc power, within a few minutes of getting the machine running. No it is not pleasant. Which i why i would not use it again. I am very confident the collet holder is NOT coming out.


To the OP -my suggestion remains for some bearing retainer on the taper, if you dont want to spring for a collet holder. Failing that pull the damn thing apart, stick it in your lathe and tap a thread at the end of the taper, then modify you drill chuck arbor to take a bolt or grub screw etc and screw it in to the head permanently. Like a pistol drill uses to hold its chuck on, and *almost* as good as a drawbar.

I always get a little worried when a thread like this develops because while some of the methods talked about work for a particular person with their set up, it is not necessarily good practice and could encourage someone without the appropriate knowledge to do the wrong (and a potentially dangerous) thing.

So, for anyone who considers themselves new to all this and is looking for advice in terms of accepted practice,

• Drill presses are not considered suitable for side loads; the bearings are not designed to take anything except axial loads
• 3 jaw drill chucks similarly are not suitable for side loads and can loosen under load
• Morse tapers can vibrate out of a spindle especially when subjected to side loading unless retained with a drawbar.
• Mill tables are substantial items and bolt on X-Y tables or vices will not have the same rigidity, so don't expect the same performance
• On a drill press an X-Y table should really only be used for positioning purposes
• Morse tapers are designed to be removable. Tapers (and sockets) should be clean and dry (including free from oil). While anerobic compounds (glues, bearing and thread lockers) will help retain a spindle, it will mean that the taper will be more difficult/ impossible to remove with normal methods.

Michael

Originally Posted by Michael G

• Morse tapers can vibrate out of a spindle especially when subjected to side loading unless retained with a drawbar.

There is another way used in industry....

Some horizontal borers use or used morse tapers in the traveling spindle.... There were held in place by special holders that had a second slot in front of the knock out slot.... In this second slot a special tool was put in that wedged in the morse taper...

Maybe rather than focusing on the negatives, it would be better to take a more balanced view.
I really hate hearing that something "cant be done"

I think we are all agreed that milling in a drill press with a chuck is a bad idea.
But i have shown that it can be done with collets, and can be done quite successfully.

Perhaps the common problem here is the chuck and not the drill press itself. It would be good to see somebody else try it with collets, real world evidence trumps misinformation in my book. i hear a lot of people saying it cant be done, but who has actually tried to MAKE IT WORK?

Originally Posted by Michael G

• Drill presses are not considered suitable for side loads; the bearings are not designed to take anything except axial loadsl

Not sure what drill presses you have been looking at but both of mine have deep groove ball bearings at the spindle, which are pretty damn good at taking radial loads. Sure they arent as good as a matched pair of angular contact bearings but i doubt you find these in the cheap chinese mills either.

That was the balanced view.
While you have something that works for you my concern is that someone else may take what you have done as being acceptable practice, duplicate it and then break things or worse still, injure themselves. This is why I prefaced the summary with an explanation saying exactly that. I am not saying what you are doing can't be done. You have assessed the risks, think they are acceptable and are proceeding. Is someone new to metalwork able to assess the risks as well as someone with years of trade experience behind them? Probably not.
Bearings have clearances in them and depending on what class of bearing you have the clearance may intensify any vibration. This is one of the reasons for pre-load, in that it takes out some of that clearance. Without knowing your drill press, its condition and how it has been set up that may be an issue for your setup or may not. However, what works for you may not be advisable on some of the pieces of equipment that I have seen called drill presses.

Michael