Thread: LPG heating torches

heres mapp gas in air

MAPP gas is also used in combustion with air for brazing and soldering, where it has considerable advantages over competing propane fuel due to its high combustion temperature of 2,020 °C (3,670 °F)in Air.

now to find LPG with air...not oxygen.

The second column from the left is the type of propane burner we are talking about.

As I said before it is NOT your standard old type propane burner.

Here's a couple of pictures of what we're talking about.

Some quick and dirty lathe boring bars done with the gun.

And the gun itself - which from memory cost about $220.

Here's a quote from the EH Cambridge site : "The autotorch brazing system is a major advance in propane-air torch design. It is a portable bronze brazing system using only a single cylinder or propane. Other features include automatic piezo-electric ignition, interchangeable burners, specially designed brazing regulator, three highly efficient burners."

I only got one type of burner nozzle when I bought mine over ten years ago, but it's the same gun.

It does what it says.

Originally Posted by nearnexus

so I know what I'm talking about.

IMO.....no you dont.!!..

I've done my homework and I put it to you that Mapp Gas burns hotter with gas to air mix than propane.

Hi eskimo,
While map is undoubtedly hotter, isn't it more a question of
A. Is LPG hot enough for the purpose
B. which torch deliverers more btu per hour.

After all oxy/acetylene is hotter again and that isnt always a good thing for soldering or brazing.

If LPG will do the job its going to be cheaper than map.

I've never used map and never used LPG for anything other than heat.

Stuart

Originally Posted by Stustoys

B. which torch deliverers more btu per hour.

yes your right
I think you find that mapp delivers more also...

and yes mapp is dearer, but when your charging for labour, and time is money, it is more economical for the client to use mapp

(and at my rates they are a lot better off )

The Bulfinch 440 can sure put out some heat.





This is the only MAPP Gas torch that I can find that gets anywhere near it & even the Bullfinch 340 puts out more BTUs.
Trigger Start Torch - Torch and Torch Kits - Gas Welding - 3DPX3 : Grainger Industrial Supply

Thank you Cliff

I've used standard MAPP gas burners and the Bullfinch side by side on copper plumbing jobs and while they do similar jobs, the Bullfinch is much better in windy conditions.

Also the big benefit is the cost of the gas is peanuts compared to MAPP.

The Bullfinch chews through the LPG, and needs to operate off of a 9kg bottle, which is something plumbers may not like to lug around.

Plumbers can just pass on the cost of the MAPP to the customer, so they may not rush out and buy a Bullfinch.

BUT, for people like farmers and tradesmen/hobbyists who don't care about that aspect (having a had large oxy set previously) the LPG unit is compact, plenty hot enough for bronze, and costs about $28 for refill which will last a very very long time.

It beats MAPP hands down IMO.

These guns are regularly demonstrated at farm field days. EH Cambridge send them all over Oz. Farmers are notoriously tight fisted with $$$s and to be bought by those guys, raised on oxy, the product has to be damn good.

Which it is.

Rothenberger claim 1970C for Surefire 2 and 2020C temps for the Surefire 3...(I just rang them 02 9899 7577)

if we go by the link that nearnexus posted that Bullfire only gets to 1200 tops? so if Rothenberger aint telling porkies I'd be inclined to accept the reality that Mapp is hotter?

however I am open for correction..meaning I would have to eat my words if someone can show me otherwise.

if we look at the Grainger link that Cliff posted, that burner appears to be able to use either propane or mapp.....and the tech data info on it gives flame temp in F ... "MAPP Temp 3650" (2027C) & "Propane Temp 3400" (1888C).

But as one can see, burner design/size also has an effect ...1200C for the Bullfire on propane and 1888C Bernzomatic

its getting confusing...so I'll agree with Nearnexus that we both dont know what we are talking about...well no exactly anyway

I never said I don't know what I'm talking about.

I do however know from personal experience of having owned and used oxy, MAPP, and the Bullfinch how they each perform.

I couldn't care less about debates on flame temperatures etc.

It comes down to how well they operate in the field - and from my experience the BullFinch is worth every cent of the significant price it is.

The main benefit is that the Bullfinch is very cheap cheap cheap to run -as per my original post. Also those damn MAPP bottles aren't always running out when you want to use them.

They both can do similar jobs, I never said one was hotter than the other, but I did say the Bullfinch was better - IMHO as a cost effective and excellent replacement for oxy.

Which is what the OP was asking about.

Originally Posted by nearnexus

The main benefit is that the Bullfinch is very cheap cheap cheap to run -as per my original post. Also those damn MAPP bottles aren't always running out when you want to use them.

I'm not sure consumable cost is really an issue between LPG and MAPP (it is however between oxy and the other two, because of gas rental).

I used to use LPG a lot (for many, many years) and never had an issue with the cost i.e. it's cheap and a bottle lasts ages. In the last few years I switched to MAPP (which I personally think is better than LPG, but let's not get into that) and again cost is not an issue i.e. it's cheap and the bottles last for ages.

I find MAPP to be the winner for me. It runs hotter, is more portable and like LPG is cheap to run.

You guys are forgetting it's not only about temperature, it's about the amount of heat generated - a big burner on a stove can boil water a lot quicker than a small one. (Can anyone tell that I'm cooking pasta for tea?). Temperature only dictates how quickly heat will transfer.
If the Bullfinch needs a 9kg cylinder chances are it chews through the gas and so is pumping more kW into the job than MAPP is.
I use MAPP myself but have sometimes had to sit jobs on a camp gas stove to get things hot enough.

Michael

(This is an interesting discussion but please don't start making it personal - there are other forums for that)

I totally with you agree on both counts

Yes, you can have a very hot small flame and it won't supply enough heat to do the job, same as a very big flame with a soft heat won't do it either.

Flame temperasture is only part of the story - you also need volume.

As I said earlier, I sometimes use the Bullfinch with extra backup from my old regular lower temperature (paint stripper type) Primus gun to preheat and up the anti to deal with bigger than recommended bronze brazing jobs.

And if that's not enough then you add a simple 4 or 5 red brick hearth.

For hard bronze brazing anything bigger than say 1" solid or thin sheet stuff you need something bigger then MAPP or new generation LPG/Bullfinch.

The Colt LPG/oxy kits look to be the way to go, and at least you cut your bottle rental in half by only having the O2 bottle to get ripped off on.

I've not used one of these kits, so I'm not qualified to say how they compare to Oxy/Acet , but they should be pretty capable given the O2 component.

Maybe someone who's actually used one can enlighten us on how they perform ?

Thanks for the input fellas, good to see a few BTU's pumping into the thread, I hadn't come across the Bullfinch in my search over the weekend, it looks and sounds pretty good and nearnexus has compared to other torches as well, I reckon if you paid 200 + bucks for a gas torch and it didn't light your smoke then nearnexus would've told us that.

At the moment I'm waiting for more details on propane torches that also connect to the compressed air.
I haven't heard of them before ? But they sound interesting.

Perkeo - Made in Germany: PERKEO Propane-compressed air heating, brazing and melting outfit KLEIN RISTA

Model 89-3 | The Harris Products Group