Thread: modified computer power supply?

Originally Posted by Vernonv

I am yet to see in this thread one reasonable safety issue of using a PC PS as a bench power supply in the situation we are discussing.

I can see one safety issue... Getting stressed out reading this thread..

All that needs to be done is point out any safety issues, proscribe the actual risk which could be one a brazillion... Then leave it up to the individual what they want to do..

None of this nanny state superior "I know what is good for you, and you are incapable of knowing it" rubbish..

Originally Posted by Vernonv

The only thing I see is a mountain where a mole hill once was.

I am yet to see in this thread one reasonable safety issue of using a PC PS as a bench power supply in the situation we are discussing.

quote" who cares about compliance"


and so on.

I thnk that pretty well sums up the attitude.


On a regular almost daily basis, I encounter poeple who have absolutly no idea about why we do things certain ways.....I regularly encounter people who think they know better and want to do it their own way.....I most definitely encounter people who simply can not grasp risk and consequence.

Our safety legeslation is so damn constrictive and the penalties soo high because there are so many people like this arround.



When you start playing with 240V mans power, there is not much room for having you own opinions and doing things any way you like....just because YOU can't see a problem.

That is why there are thousands of pages of standards and it is a licenced trade in this country.



It is doing you own thing with electricity that gets people killed and burns down houses.



If you ARE an unlicenced and untrained person, and you are going to play arround with 240V electrical circuits (I personally have no problem with that), you should confine yourself to relativly simple and straight forward arrangements and make sure they are 100% compliant and 100% safe.

Because if something goes wrong the consequences are pretty damn seveer.


Me....I am trained, licenced and carry a few million dollars liability insurance....If I make an honest mistake or there is a component failure that causes someones house or business to burn down.....well...as long I was not willfully negligent......my insurance will cover it and life will go on.....I may have to pay an excess and show cause before the electrical board......but that is a minor inconvieninece compred to bankrupcy and a jail term


You on the other hand.......well......... you have knowingly done unlicenced electrical work or knowingly used an item that is not fit for purose........a pretty good chance they will void your insurance and does the phrase.." 40 penalty units" meany anything to you...


Serioulsy..if you are going to be unlicenced and play with 240V......you'd be wise to get it right.

NOW, many of these home and office PC power supplies are barely safe and barely compliant when installed as intended.
They are only designed to last the commercial life of the machine and are known to fail in a variety of different ways.

I do not repair switchmode power supplies, but I have close friends who do and I have dismantled my fair share to strip out certain parts.

I have seen how poorly some of them are built, I have seen PCBs browned and discoloured from the heat in normal use ( this is fairly common), I have seen failed PC switchmodes that have big chared holes in the boards, melted insulation and the plating burnt off the case.

Remember too the whole computer industry had a problem a few years ago with chemical formualtion in capacitors which cause them to fail in a variety of ways.


Serioulsy these things may be cheap and everywhere but they are not an item for untrained hobbists to be playing arround with.

cheers

Originally Posted by soundman

blah, blah, blah ...

Are we still talking about PC PS's or is that just a lot of hot air???

Originally Posted by soundman

NOW, many of these home and office PC power supplies are barely safe and barely compliant when installed as intended.

Ok, back on track....

Originally Posted by soundman

Blah, blah, blah ...

So PS PS's are cheap and and are likely to fail. I still don't see the increased risk having a PS fail outside the PC case, as opposed to inside the PC case ... but I'm sure your going to tell me everything but that.

Originally Posted by Vernonv

PS. However, again, the most likely outcome is a dead PS.
Not a safety issue. However, once again, the most likely outcome is a dead PS (well, dead sooner than a new quality PS).

Yeh well here we go with not gasping the risks again.

How exactly will that power supply die, and what will occur while it is dying.

There have been a spate of house fires caused by failing switchmode power supplies in ...in particular TVs.

If you want to see a realy crappy switchmode PS..look at flat screen TVs.
Now that TV should be made of all flame retardent material to be compliant....but still they burn down houses.

There is more to compliance than electric shock.

A PC power supply mounted as designed in the top of a metal case is going to be a hell of a lot better than the same PS sitting on a bench in the case of one burning up.
So do you trust the chineese to use all flame retardent materials in their PS.

I've been involved in modification campaigns where non flame retardent material has been used in equipment manufactured in the west and it was considered necessary to replace it.


BTW have you see what happnes when dust containing various metals burns.

When one has seen the failures and cleaned up the mess, one gets a bit of an appreciation of how things fail and the risks involved.

cheers

Originally Posted by soundman

A PC power supply mounted as designed in the top of a metal case is going to be a hell of a lot better than the same PS sitting on a bench in the case of one burning up.

What rubbish. There is no difference. A failure of a PS in a PC case will be the same as a PS outside the case.

You seem to not like PC PS's and that's fine, but don't try and tell me that having them in a PC case suddenly makes them less likely to fail and/or safer.

There is none so blind as those who won't see.


You can contiune on with your butcherous, illegal and dangerous pratcices.

But don't try and tell the one who has the training, licences and 30+ years workbench and field service experience AND who HAS read the standards... that I don't know what I am talking about.

Computer power supplies are not compliant, legal or fit for purpose other than mounted as intednded in a computer case or other similar housing.

They are not and where never intended to be a stand alone applinace.

Is that good enough or do you want me to write to the electrical authority and get a ruling.

cheers

Originally Posted by .RC.

I can see one safety issue... Getting stressed out reading this thread..

All that needs to be done is point out any safety issues, proscribe the actual risk which could be one a brazillion... Then leave it up to the individual what they want to do..

None of this nanny state superior "I know what is good for you, and you are incapable of knowing it" rubbish..

Very well said, if you don't know what you are doing leave it alone or do it at your OWN risk. Australia is becoming the biggest Nanny country in the World. You can't do this or that. What ever happened to COMMON SENSE and taking responsibility for your own actions.

Common Sense 1.jpg

Originally Posted by soundman

There is none so blind as those who won't see.


You can contiune on with your butcherous, illegal and dangerous pratcices.

But don't try and tell the one who has the training, licences and 30+ years workbench and field service experience AND who HAS read the standards... that I don't know what I am talking about.

Computer power supplies are not compliant, legal or fit for purpose other than mounted as intednded in a computer case or other similar housing.

They are not and where never intended to be a stand alone applinace.

Is that good enough or do you want me to write to the electrical authority and get a ruling.

cheers

I think you are overstating the case, "butcherous, illegal and dangerous pratcices" seriously? I don't see any suggestions of illegal practices being made.

Computer power supplies are cheap, readily available and can be used in a number of useful projects around the workshop, from 12v machine lighting to electrolytic de-rusting..

If you want to give helpful advice on making these projects safer, please do so without insulting everyone.

Ray

The pc power supply is designed to be a standalone device so that you DONT need a electrical ticket to work on computers. Take the PC powersupply out of the computer case, you still dont need an electrical ticket to do anything with it.

The PC powersupply should be certified to Australian standards. I say should be. If its not, it should not be sold in Australia. WRT to fire, built quality etc, whats it matter if its inside or outside of a computer? It should not catch on fire irrespective of where it is. WRT to the enclosure, once again its should be certified for use in Australia, and hence should pass all the test criteria regarding openings in cases and risk of electrocution.

And if it were not safe to operate outside of a pc case, then you would need a restricted electrical licence to work on a PC.

At the end of the day, using a pc powersupply outside of a pc case is no different than using a plug pack adaptor which are also made notoriously cheap and nasty.


Now, might I add, that the PSU I opened and tested last night does have a floating negative rail. I did notice however that there is spot on the PCB that gave the option of linking the negative rail to the chassis. Initially I thought that was a dumb idea, but the more I tihnk about it the more I can see why they do it. At the end of the day, its designed with one purpose in mind. I also thought it was illegal, but I now realise its not. The isolation between primary and secondary still exists. I am also sober now!!

So I say use at your own risk. The PSU is perfectly safe out of the case, but as with anything electricity be it car batteries or computer powersupplies there is always risk of fire and damage to oneself.

Originally Posted by Auskart

Very well said, if you don't know what you are doing leave it alone or do it at your OWN risk. Australia is becoming the biggest Nanny country in the World. You can't do this or that. What ever happened to COMMON SENSE and taking responsibility for your own actions.

Common Sense 1.jpg

Oh serioulsy.

these days common sence is not all all common and all to many people are keen to blame other people for things that are their own fault.

on the matter of a nanny state.....oh serioulsy...go and have a look at europe.


I hear lots of people bleating about a nanny state....usually when there is a law making something they want to do illegal....mostly its been illigal for a very long time and for a good reason.



If ya don't like it here...move to the US where workplace health and safety continues to be a joke in most states...... minimum wage is still under $10 an hour for an adult, you have to be rich to go to uni and seat belts are considered an infringement on personal freedom.




The fact is that all the matters concerning electrical safety and regulation that apply in this case have changed very little in 20 years.

If anything there have been a lot of changes that now allow electrical items to be imported from overseas that would not have been permitted in years past.

Let me tell you there is a lot of equipment comming in that does not even comply with current very accomodating import requirements.

Testified to by the endless string of recalls and bans.

Cheer up...we have one of the safest electrical systems in the world.....you have to do something pretty stupid to be electricuted in this country...but still people manage.

cheers

Originally Posted by soundman

Oh serioulsy.

these days common sence is not all all common and all to many people are keen to blame other people for things that are their own fault.

Agreed

on the matter of a nanny state.....oh serioulsy...go and have a look at europe.

Rubbish, we are one of the most over Governed and over Regulated countries in the World.

The fact is that all the matters concerning electrical safety and regulation that apply in this case have changed very little in 20 years.

Standards only apply to items manufactured or imported for sale in Australia.

Workplace health and safety only applies to a commercial or government enterprise.

To the best of my knowledge there are NO laws which prevent a person from mucking about with a PC power supply in their own garage for their own use. So long as it is not permanently connected to or a part of the supply, you can do what you want. The laws that do exist are in relation to a person or organisation who offers their services on a commercial basis.

I make no comment on whether it's a clever thing to do but you can't tell people that it's illegal or breaches any standard or regulation, because it's not and it doesn't.

If you burn your house down or electrocute your friend, spouse or child as a consequence, that is a different story and criminal negligence may come into it then.

> The PC powersupply should be certified to Australian standards. I say should be. If its not, it should not be sold in Australia.

You must still believe in Santa Claus then.

- There is no requirement that everything electrical must be certified to Australian Standards. Australia recognizes many foreign certifications. If it was not so, the selection of different goods that you could buy here would be barely 10% of what it is now. The world population is now about 6,000,000,000 people, and Australia accounts for just about 0.33% of these. For most international manufacturers, Australia represents about 2 or 3% of total turnover.

- There is no way you can stop uncertified (of fake certified) electrical goods being imported and sold in Australia. It is almost like with the drug trade. People wanting drugs will find a dealer. People wanting cheap computers will find a dealer. Nothing new, has been that way since the first Chinese 8086 IBM clones in the mid80's. Buyer beware.
I remember in the 80's you could buy pirated software packages in Hong Kong, so well made they even copied the copyright pages in the manuals. The same people have no hesitation to copy a test certificate label and put it onto a power supply. Even if customs people had time to check every container that comes in, how should they distinguish a fake? The Chinese government even takes part in faking the CE mark, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking, scroll down to the near bottom where it says "China Export".


> WRT to fire, built quality etc, whats it matter if its inside or outside of a computer? It should not catch on fire irrespective of where it is.

I disagree. How big the risk is depends on the circumstances. Take a PC power supply like the one in my Aldi PC that I posted a picture earlier on, with the huge vent openings at the bottom. Imagine that used as a standalone unit on a wooden tabletop or bench. Should its innards melt out, can you really exclude the risk of the wood smouldering and eventually starting a fire, even hours later? Now you could of course say that you would never operate it unattended...

The same power supply, same scenario, but installed inside a PC, is obviously much less of a risk. Any glowing meltout would fall onto the metal pc-case bottom, and that is spaced from table or bench by its feets.


> WRT to the enclosure, once again its should be certified for use in Australia, and
> hence should pass all the test criteria regarding openings in cases and risk of electrocution.

As I said above under "Santa Claus"....


> And if it were not safe to operate outside of a pc case, then you would need a restricted electrical licence to work on a PC.

Why? You do not need a license either to work under your jacked-up car without safety supports. It's your choice to make.


> At the end of the day, using a pc powersupply outside of a pc case is no different than using a plug pack adaptor which are also made notoriously cheap and nasty.

No. These adaptors are what is called double insulated. And they can usually not be opened without destroying the enclosure, making them a bad target for hobby modifications. There is usually also a disclaimer, like my notebook power supply says "only for use with IT equipment". That is not to say that they sometimes cause house fires (especially the small USB phone power supplies, and very especially the cheap and nasty aftermarket ones with faked approval stamp...). But they are definitely less likely to do so than a pvc power supply used outside its enclosure.

Originally Posted by neksmerj

Have tried the search function, but couldn't find that post where one of our members showed how to modify a computer supply for general use.

It might have been in an electrolysis post, even a search there turned up zilch.

How's your memory?

edit, stop, stop, stop, just found it and couldn't figure out how to delete this post.

Ken

Read the above, Ken found it in the first post, 5 pages later..............

Time to stop me thinks.