Thread: Neat cutting oils

Gavin, the parts washer is an ingenious adaptation.

This is a link posted by Anorak Bob some time ago: Bolex Collector | Articles | Inside Paillard Bolex. There are two vids, I mean films; the second one shows machining with flood lubrication. No sign of any smoke. Maybe if you have enough flow it has sufficient cooling effect to prevent smoking? The original thread is here: https://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/bo...-1960s-141853/. It includes some discussion of cutting oil.

Originally Posted by Stustoys

I dont think there is anything better than water as far as removing heat goes...
Stuart

How about metho? Maybe the Lanox could be mixed with a bit of metho for improved cooling. Cheaper than the Lanox too, so it would reduce the overall cost (assuming Lanox is soluble in metho of course).

Originally Posted by Stustoys

Hi Ray,
Those are the bottles, though mine are faster as they have a red tip
Did you order the bottles yet? I can fire a couple off to you Monday.


You mean the outside tube? I'd guess that would stop the syphoning but you would still have an issue pressure changes pushing the lonox out as it heats or evaporates.

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

Thanks for the offer, but I've already ordered them 4 x 500 ml for $13.20 plus postage, with the tube, I was thinking just a short bit, an inch or two sticking out of the top, so you turn the bottle upside down to use it, no tube going down inside the bottle.

That part's washer idea is a stroke of genius.. cheap too, which is always a plus.

Regards
Ray

Originally Posted by morrisman

I want to make a coolant system up using a windscreen washer pump , run it from a 12v supply or a gel cell battery , safer that way . The plan is to make a fly wire mesh screen to fit into the lathe tray , this will catch the swarth but let the coolant through where it can be circulated MIKE

Mike, there an article in a recent MEW regarding using a windscreen washer for this purpose, and the short-answer is straight out of the box it doesn't work. The author said the motor got quite hot after a very short period of time. He finished up needing to reduce the voltage considerably so that would be an additional consideration. Naturally that also significantly reduces the flow rate. In the end he did however have a satisfactory system using that method.

The only thing I'd be a bit concerned about is the ability to pump thicker oils on a cold day. I know some of you guys are working in sheds, so it may be something to consider when it's minus brass monkeys first thing in the morning. I can't imagine that would be a problem for soluble oils, but neat cutting oils???

A genuine coolant pump from the Hairy Ones is $120 including GST, and I have no doubt that being the case they're available cheaper. I don't know if I would screw around with batteries, chargers, corrosion etc etc to save a relatively small amount of cash, but of course everyone has a different perspective with that.

Pete

Originally Posted by RayG

so you turn the bottle upside down to use it, no tube going down inside the bottle.

Yeap I did that to one of mine thats what I called "the sauce bottle".

Hi Jack,
I was talking about holding more heat for a certain volume. Lanox would likely supply better lubrication that water so there may not be as much heat to move anyway.

Stuart

Originally Posted by Pete F

The author said the motor got quite hot after a very short period of time. He finished up needing to reduce the voltage considerably so that would be an additional consideration. Naturally that also significantly reduces the flow rate. In the end he did however have a satisfactory system using that method.




Pete

Yeah I guess the car washer pumps are rather small and delicate . Maybe something from an aquarium would do . Even a small 12V bilge pump might work . I prefer the safety aspect of 12 volts - if something goes wrong , it cannot hurt you. A reasonably sized gel cell would run a little pump for many hours . MIKE..................seems to many of the aquarium pumps on EPAY SUBMERSIBLE Aquarium POND Fountain Water PUMP 2000LPH | eBay

Washing machine pumps work well.

Originally Posted by Pete F

The only thing I'd be a bit concerned about is the ability to pump thicker oils on a cold day.

Question (to anyone): How long has soluble coolant been in common use? My lathe dates from the 50s/60s, same era as that Bolex footage. I wonder if the pump was intended for coolant or oil?

Originally Posted by Bryan

Question (to anyone): How long has soluble coolant been in common use? My lathe dates from the 50s/60s, same era as that Bolex footage. I wonder if the pump was intended for coolant or oil?

Pre 1920's Bryan. My milling machine at work has a coolant set up on it.

Phil

Originally Posted by morrisman

Yeah I guess the car washer pumps are rather small and delicate . Maybe something from an aquarium would do . Even a small 12V bilge pump might work . I prefer the safety aspect of 12 volts - if something goes wrong , it cannot hurt you. A reasonably sized gel cell would run a little pump for many hours . MIKE..................seems to many of the aquarium pumps on EPAY SUBMERSIBLE Aquarium POND Fountain Water PUMP 2000LPH | eBay

Hi Mike,
A lot of guys use that type but only around the 400- 600 LPH and they can be picked up for around $5-$15, so not expensive to try.
Most markets have someone selling fish accessories and that would be the cheapest place to get one, other than that I have seen them at Kmart and places like that over the years.
The aquarium shop will be the most expensive place to buy one.

I have used these type of pumps for years in the pond and fish tank and they last a long time. I think it is to do with them getting cooled by the surrounding water which makes them last. With the way they work you can restrict the flow without any problems and don't need to have a separate return pipe to take the excess.

Dave

Originally Posted by Dave J

Hi Mike,
A lot of guys use that type but only around the 400- 600 LPH and they can be picked up for around $5-$15, so not expensive to try.
Most markets have someone selling fish accessories and that would be the cheapest place to get one, other than that I have seen them at Kmart and places like that over the years.
The aquarium shop will be the most expensive place to buy one.

I have used these type of pumps for years in the pond and fish tank and they last a long time. I think it is to do with them getting cooled by the surrounding water which makes them last. With the way they work you can restrict the flow without any problems and don't need to have a separate return pipe to take the excess.

Dave

Thanks for that Dave

Originally Posted by Steamwhisperer

Pre 1920's Bryan. My milling machine at work has a coolant set up on it.

Phil

But Phil, how do you know what was originally in it? Could have been whale oil for all we know.

Well I thought I should try to answer my own question. A bit of Googling found this at Bioarmor Technology | Cutting Oils | Metalworking Lubricants:

History of Coolant Development for Cutting Oils

In the early 1900’s, JTM Products, Inc., then operating as the Phoenix Oil Co., developed the first emulsified oil cutting fluid, calling it “Cut-Rite.” This water/oil combination was a great improvement over the straight oils that were the norm for all cutting and grinding fluids in use at that time.

See link for the full text. So You might be right Phil. But why were Bolex using neat oil in the 60s? I bet they had a good reason.

Bryan,
As I understand it.
"suds" started out as soap and water pre emulsified oil
Water is a great coolant and not a bad lube.
Oil is a great lube and not a bad coolant.
Water is cheap.
Oil isn't cheap.
Water rusts.
Oil doesn't.

Now you make your choices.
On larger powerful lathe heat will likely be a big issue. You'll need lots of coolant in the tank so it doesn't get to hot.
Small lathe can use neat oil without costing the earth, heat isn't likely to be as big an issue.

What was the question again? lol

Stuart

Stuart, the question in my mind was something like: Could a neat oil provide a better solution than coolant for the home machinist, especially in a pumped system?

I think your summary is a pretty fair one. But there are a couple of points missing. One is tank life. Coolant requires things like aerators, anti-bacterial additives, tramp skimmers, blah blah, and still ends up foul. (I'm only going by what I've read.) Oil sounds like it may perform much better in this regard.

The other is health & safety. I don't know enough about this area yet, but it sounds like some of the additives in coolant might be unpleasant, but probably not really harmful. Oil OTOH, smokes when hot, and smoke ain't good. Yul Brynner told me so. It might smoke a bit less if you have a lot of it, but with heavy cuts, or plunging, you'd better have a fan.

At this point most of my information has come from two threads on HSM:
Using soluble vs straight cutting oil - The Home Shop Machinist & Machinist's Workshop Magazine's BBS
how much smoke should there be when machining? - The Home Shop Machinist & Machinist's Workshop Magazine's BBS

In all honesty the more I read about it the more I like working dry.