Offered a machine shop job but shocked at the pay offer

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Originally Posted by eskimo

IMO I think people who complain about wages are just plain greedy and want too much!

there are also those who just want what those down the road has..a big new boat etc etc etc and go into debt to fund it....come on?

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Hi Eskimo, that may be the case in some instances but not necessarily all cases. I agree it's no use looking at what others have because there will always be people that earn more than you! There are certainly people in the world that have next to nothing and are happier than many of us. I never used to be materialistic….. but then I got into metalwork and that went out the window. :~ I have some close family members who are very wealthy, run a very successful company yet, to me they look miserable, they begrudge paying ANY wages! Life needs to be as simple as possible but at the same time happiness does not pay the bills or the mortgage or buy the food.

Simon

I respectfully disagree.

The car industry is dying because us aussies have reduced our purchases of Australian cars by more than half over the last 15 years.

I see these media commentators bleating about lack of government support and what a travesty it is the car industry is moving out.

We all had the power to keep it ... But ... We all choose to purchase something else.

I am aware of the industry plan set in motion by Senator Button to cut subsidies etc., but, as I drive down the road now all I see are SUVs (very few of which ever make their way off black top, tow a caravan or horse float).

Family cars were the mainstay ... But ... I think I would like a Ford Kluger or Toyota Prado thanks.

I started working at the Holden plant in Dandenong in 1987 (for an IT company wholly owned by General Motors).

Slowly slowly we watched the rationalisation of all the vehicle assembly plants ... Until only Elizabeth remained building Commodore and its derivatives.

Oh .. and in case you are wondering, I have owned 5 of them since the early 90s.

So I wonder ... Do we all sit here and complain about Aussie industries closing down ... and then in the same breath jump on eBay to purchase something direct from Hong Kong or China ... Because its cheaper ?

Hmmmm

Well ... That is my view anyway ...

Hi All,
Did a Wood Turning Demo for a group of 70+ people.
Put the Stop Watch on as I left my car, & received $25 for 3hrs. 51 mins. of time.
Will not get caught again.

I agree with most of the arguments put forward here so far, but they are mising some of the puzzle pieces: Merceds, BMW and Volkswagens ARE manufactured in CHina - becasue they too can;t compete with the low pruduction costs there either.
The reason? OH&S, risk assessments and paperwork in EUrope. ANd guess what? Most European countries have MUCH higher unemployment then Australia.....
WHat I hate about the systems we have here now is that they don;t actually do much about workplace safety at all - they just shift the blame to the employees - to keep the compensation premiums low....
We have sadly followed the USA example of suing each other for huge sums every time someone gets hurt - no matter how accidentally, rather than by negligence. As a reult, the compensation premiums have gone crazy and the employers have to move the blame to individuals to keep them from going even further up.
The result: more and more paid time is being wasted with paper trails to ensure everyone has signed on the dotted line to accept the blame - instead of doing productive work.
'My son tells me of his work procedures (he works in environmental mangement): Say they get a two day job spraying weeds along a road. Day one they all go to the job site, check out the work to be done, make a written risk assessment and everyone signs it, everyone has to read the labels on the chemicals they use (like they do for the same chemicals on every job), sign that they read them, read the instructions on the chem masks they have to wear - just like they do on every other job - and sign that they read it, get out the barriers and signs, warning the public that there are chemical sprays in user on the site - even if the site is miles from any public access, then they work out who does what and write down a work plan (in principal so they don;t encroach on each others spraying activity) - which everyone signs, add smokos and lunch to that and day 1 is finished. They pack up all the barriers and signs and drive back to the depot.
Day 2 they go out there again, set up all the barriers and sign again, but now it's hotter than yesterday and the chem masks are too bloody hot and steam up. So they put a wet hanky across their faces, check which way the wind is blowing and start spraying mainly down-wind so they don't breathe stuff. Mind you they read yesterday that the stuff actually isn't toxic at all - their employer won't let them use the effective toxic stuff because that would require them all to have actual chemical handling training and certificates and that costs money, so only my son (the team leader) has that certificate.
So they spray weak crap all over the weeds some of the day and then write a report on all the areas they sprayed, what precautions they took to avoid spraying the wanted species of plants in the area and all sign it. Then they pack up again and drive back.
THe next day my son spends half the day collating and summarising all the reports and signed papers and delivers them to the boss, who then spends another half a day documenting the entire process, verifying all the signatures and reports and cost details and sends them off to the road authority that gave out the contract.
So all up there is three days work for a bit less than one day's productive activity. You REALLY wonder why it costs millions to maintain roads????
Now the funny thing is, when my son started working there, the first thing he noticed was that the chem masks had DUST FILTER cartiges in them. He asked where the chem filter cartiges were kept and was met with blank looks and "these are what we use here"....

Now which bit of the risk assessment, barriers and sigsn, reading lables, training and having annual certificates, reporting and documenting killed the weeds?????

I gave up working as a nurse because I spent more than half the day on the computer documenting my nursing assessments, care planning, implementation evidence, outcome assessments and exception reporting - instead of actually nursing patients. When they eventually sadi that I needed to also complete daily stats of all the activities I did all day and do less implementation and refer my patients to health service assistants after doing assessments and planning - I quit (well there were other reasons as well). My heart REALLY wasn't in that job any more.... Guess what's happening to health costs and why?

These are just two examples......

Do you think the auto industry is any different - or any other industry for that matter? So now its too expensive to produce anything in this country (and other countries like this one) and we are complaining??????

Guess what. Keith is right, we are going right back to where we started after we all lost our work and go on welfare and that rus out. Then we will start to produce stuff again by actually MAKING stuff instead of filling in forms. But that will be in my grandkids lives, not mine or my kids'....

In the 90s the first wave of this bureaucratic impost on industry was the ISO xxxx craze, the so called QA systems. Millions of reams of paper were used to make millions of QA manuals so companies could claim they conformed to ISO xxxx, because if they didn't they couldn't get govt contract or couldn't supply other companies that had govt contracts.

It was all BS because those manuals and "systems" were only used to fill in forms.

When all that was in place the real bureaucratic wave rolled in OH&S, I would like a cent for every man hour expended on this, I would be a millionaire, if not billionare.

With all that in place and little men inspecting every workplace for compliance one would think we now have a zero accident rate - I don't think so.

We still read of brick walls blowing over and container cranes toppling over - but I cannot even enter the wharf without a high-vis vest - gotta to have one of those!

The whole nation is now ruled by a huge bureaucratic machine churning out ever more new rules and regulations to justify their existence - and the community pays and pays. Double or treble actually, as first of all we have to pay these very well paid bureaucrats (and their guaranteed super), then we have to pay for the ever increasing cost of production and finally we have to pay the dole to all the people pushed out of work because we can no longer compete with overseas countries, so we import everything. In the meantime the unions keep pushing for ever increasing wages and so the downward spiral continues.

Welcome to Australia 2014.

No wonder the Chinese are laughing their heads of at the Western world, they really don't need intercontinental missiles to attack us, they are simply buying us all out.

Our office for car registrations closed for "renovations" and relocated 4 doors up temporarily while the reno was on. I have had to go to the "newly renovated" twice during this last week. NOW you are met at the door by a "concierge" asked how are you and what can we do for you today. She then presses the appropriate button to issue you a numbered ticket then you are offered a seat while you wait. So what you say....the "old system" had you enter and then you pressed the the button yourself, then find a seat to wait.
The reno included new counter for the staff (what was wrong with the old ones) and lounge type chairs (Before were kitchen type chairs). How much did they spend? who knows? Is it any better now?
Ah progress you have got to love it.......oh they noe open from 7am-7pm. Now that was a handy change

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Originally Posted by Glenn.Visca

The car industry is dying because us aussies have reduced our purchases of Australian cars by more than half over the last 15 years.

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Yes, well I'll put my hand up and say I am one of those people. I would have been happy to buy an Aussie car but I'm yet to see this country produce a good quality 4x4. Mitsubishi used to have a sales pitch "If you find a better car, buy it" Well, guess what? I did!

Oh and yes I do go off road. 4x4 are too expensive to buy if you don't use them for that! I average about 10 trips a year with the family. It used to be government policy that all novated lease cars had to be made in Australia. That's fair enough, it did exclude me from a novated lease but be buggered if I was going to be forced to buy a car that didn't suite. Rather amusing really, when you look at how many government departments drove around in Hilux's! Anyway, that ruling got relaxed a few years ago, so I bought a Prado!

You have to ask the question, why didn't Australians buy Australian cars? Most manufacturers would say it because they weren't building the right ones. For some reason we blame the consumer for not buying cars that don't suite them!

Simon

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Originally Posted by eskimo

IMO I think people who complain about wages are just plain greedy and want too much!

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Hi Eskimo,

that statement is very generic. Are you saying anyone who complains about wages is greedy ? I mean if someone was working a forty hour week yet cannot pay basic bills, never mind luxuries, or getting a video at the weekend, or getting the car fixed, etc, etc, then they are just plain greedy ?? In our "developed" nation I think something is wrong when we have reached that level.

Keith

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Originally Posted by Big Shed

We still read of brick walls blowing over and container cranes toppling over - but I cannot even enter the wharf without a high-vis vest - gotta to have one of those!

No wonder the Chinese are laughing their heads of at the Western world, they really don't need intercontinental missiles to attack us, they are simply buying us all out.

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And I need the flashy light on my digger or else I'm not allowed on site. I'm sure a worker will walk right into my digger while it's swinging around, engine motoring away, etc. He wouldn't see the digger because it didn't have an amber flashing light.

The Chinese seem to do the right thing to move ahead financially. Look at the way they operate as a family. They all live together and pay off the first house ASAP, massively reducing all that interest payment. Then they are in a great position to repeat it and gain more wealth. Our culture is one of "independence" and "standing on your own feet", leaving home as soon as you are able.
Yep I reckon they are talking about how we are crippling ourselves while they grow in strength. Just a few days ago I was told about a guy that was offered awesome money for a position in China. After some time he came home because 40 local guys died on the site over a relatively short time. Life is really cheap over there, and it's scary to think what will happen if they become the economic superpower while we end up broke. I'm sure they'd like to not have to pay for Australian resources.................

Keith.

Joe and Big Shed, I have to say that your arguments very closely match my own thoughts of working in Australia today.

I have to say that even though my employer is big on employee safety, they refuse to consider anything that is not already regarded as risk. There have been countless occasions when the determined safe process is more risky than other methods. Their answer is to bury their heads in the sand, a statement that resembles their behavior. I believe that it is total bunkum. Ostriches do not do that. Pure invention. I have never asked an ostrich tho.

Dean

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Originally Posted by simonl

Yes, well I'll put my hand up and say I am one of those people. I would have been happy to buy an Aussie car but I'm yet to see this country produce a good quality 4x4. Mitsubishi used to have a sales pitch "If you find a better car, buy it" Well, guess what? I did!

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Same. Got a Rodeo 4WD tray top utility with a turbo diesel motor. No Aussie manufacturer has ever made anything like it and fair enough too, they'd have to export to get economies of scale. Which leads to.....

Vehicle manufacturing in Australia has been a joke for the last 3 decades. Sole purpose was to extract money from a captive clientele and export said money to the home offices of the companies. So they're going, so sad, too bad.

I know the arguments about loss of skills et al and I frankly do not give a damn.

As for low wages in the metal trades, shrug, I have the same opinion. I got my first degree as a marine biologist and actually got a job. 5 years later and over 30 people willing to kill for my job, little pay and all, I switched to computing where at the time there were 30 jobs for every competent person. I had to retrain to do it, fine, I did that.

Law of supply & demand my friends, just deal with it.

I'm not even touching the whole OH&S saga, too much time dealing with idiots who need coaching to breathe on the one hand and managers who should have been subject to retrospective termination on the other.

PDW

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Originally Posted by Big Shed

I cannot even enter the wharf without a high-vis vest - gotta to have one of those!

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That is my pet hate.

We regularly see politicians wearing these vests and hard hats to open something or other but last night on the news it went to extremes.

The Vic Premier was digging the first sod on the new Monash Children hospital site and was assisted by a very young patient all wearing these yellow vests. If the site was dangerous enough to have to wear these vests why did they put a small child at risk? All for these stupid photo ops that pollies think will help them get elected rather than tackle the real problems we face.

Wish we could have Henry Bolte back who would never allow such farces and stupid regulations.


Peter.

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Originally Posted by Big Shed

In the 90s the first wave of this bureaucratic impost on industry was the ISO xxxx craze, the so called QA systems. Millions of reams of paper were used to make millions of QA manuals so companies could claim they conformed to ISO xxxx, because if they didn't they couldn't get govt contract or couldn't supply other companies that had govt contracts.

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All QC or QA did was that it allowed you to make the same stuff day in day out all year long,
it had nothing to do with whether the product was bad, absolute crap or fantastic or anywhere in between

you just needed to have the documentation to say that you can produce the same rubbish ....if that what it was

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Originally Posted by PDW

I know the arguments about loss of skills et al and I frankly do not give a damn.

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But you have to consider this.... As there are less and less jobs, and more and more unemployed, who is going to pay the welfare bill?

Government is going to raise taxes higher and higher as more and more join welfare because there simply is no job for them..

While we can export jobs, we cannot export the now unemployed workers..

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Originally Posted by Sturdee

That is my pet hate.

We regularly see politicians wearing these vests and hard hats to open something or other but last night on the news it went to extremes.

The Vic Premier was digging the first sod on the new Monash Children hospital site and was assisted by a very young patient all wearing these yellow vests. If the site was dangerous enough to have to wear these vests why did they put a small child at risk? All for these stupid photo ops that pollies think will help them get elected rather than tackle the real problems we face.

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If I was the OHS officer on the site I would boot them off for not wearing steel capped boots.. You can be sure as hell they were not wearing them, but it was a site regulation...