Thread: Perrin Freres Milling Machine

Here is a close-up of the motor nameplate. It appears to be a 1.3 PS in low (700 rpm), and 2 PS in high (1400 rpm)
Made by Leumann & Uhlmann Ag, Basel, who are still in business at 10 Hofackerstrasse. (Jimmy Hoffa street)

P.S. = a metric horsepower=735 watts. Wikipedia says 745 watts is what we mean when we say horsepower. Anyway, a huge motor for such a modest output.

(rpm=u/min in German abbreviations; the French should be rpm too, but its not. Can't recall what it is.)

Also are views of the arbor support. It is very heavy. It appears that three tee-bolts are inserted into the machine's mounting flange tee slot via the single opening, or perhaps tee-nuts. There is an oil point for the bronze bushing, and someone has also fixed another gizmo, looks like for dispensing coolant or cutting oil. I reckon it'll be a rigid set-up.

The switch shown is exactly as illustrated in my old Deckel manual. I have switch gear envy.

Greg,

Congratulations on writing an interesting concise history of this machine. You have done your homework. Maybe you should forward it on to Tony, UK lathes.

Any chance of an overall shot of the machine, just to get things into perspective?

Ken

High-tech for its time ...

"Shortly after the end of the Second World War, accessories for machine tools (rotary tables, tilting rotary tables and sine tables) were developed. The famous X-Y table in its original version (TX-25), is sold in large quantities by Charmilles (currently Agie-Charmilles) to equip the first EDM machines, which were then still controlled manually. The plant is considerably larger.

In 1956, following completion of an indifferent prototype jig bore (AV0), but with more success this time, a precision vertical jig bore machine equipped with a cross-table was developed (TX-40, changing the TX-25) and optionally a circular table (TC), both equipped with Heidenhain bright optical drives giving full-reading analogue scales in the two horizontal axes and circular axis with an accuracy of one micron for the cross-table and one second of arc for the circular table. At that time, the company employs about 80 people and machines (milling machines and jig boring machines) are produced in large batches and exported worldwide.

Subsequent vertical boring machines are equipped with motorized positioning systems. A version for rectification coordinates is also marketed. In 1957 a new factory was built in Rue Oeuches, again in Moutier, which was enlarged in 1967. The old establishment in the Rue de la Gare was abandoned shortly after the untimely death of the co-founder Felix Perrin, also in 1967 . In 1972, the company was sold by the Perrin family.

The company was purchased by Vultier Machines SA (a machine dealer in Morges) and then subsequently fell into bankruptcy in 1995 after moving into a building Pharaonic**. The company then became an independent industrial company, selling the RV-version 3, a grinding machine with 6-axis CNC coordinates, adapted from the vertical boring machine AV3. CMM's are also based on the architecture of the vertical boring mill. No significant evolution is therefore achieved despite the adaptation of numerical controls on existing machinery, and the business began to unravel.

The company's name was then changed to "Perrin Machines SA". In order to preserve its dwindling finances, it began to market in the mid 80s, with more or less success, machining centers with vertical spindle,(made surreptitiously Far East and mainly exported to East European countries under the label Perrin Machines Ltd.)

The company then begins a rapid period of decline and is finally removed (August 2001) of the Commercial Register of the Bernese Jura-Seeland."

-30-

** " a building Pharaonic" I'm guessing they didn't move into a pyramid, so I don't get this factoid. Although moving into a pyramid then going bankrupt would be a likely sequence of events. King Tut Machinery. Kinda has a ring to it.
No other comment added, but the emphasis added is mine.

Thanks Ken. I'll get a better photo of the whole machine tomorrow, along with some other stuff I've been meaning to post. I'll have to rely on you soon for some drawing talent methinks.

Methinks? jeez, have a shot of rum and suddenly I'm talking like a pirate. Aaargh!

There is another Perrin, perhaps the pre-decessor to the Brothers Perrin, who get a mention in Gottlieb Daimler's biography in Grace's Guide.

Gottlieb Daimler - GracesGuide

The relevant paragraph, is (referring to Mr Daimler)

In 1887 he sold the French Daimler patents to Edouard Sarazin who had the engine made in certain factories in Paris among them the factory of Perrin, Panhard et Cie. Here the work was carried out by M. Lavassor. Later when M. Sarazin died, Lavassor married his widow.

So, the machinist married the patent holder's widow.... seems a very French way of getting the manufacturing rights!..

Regards
Ray

la plus ca change....

(the more things change,...)

Ray, I reckon you're right about that. (I'm hearing echoes of Maurice Chevalier singing "Oh thank heaven for leet-elle girls" in that dirty little way of his)

Anyway, after I finish my déjeuner I'm heading back to the lab to take more photos.

A couple of shots of the rear of the machine:

In the first photo the input shaft can be seen along with the small drive sprocket. The chain drives the feeds input shaft. The main spindle gearbox input shaft has a triple v-belt sheave fitted...overkill for a 2 h.p. motor.

The chain is tensioned by an adjustable idler wheel shown dangling in the middle of the image.

A cast alloy cover fits over the chain complete with lube oil feed and drain.

On the right is the cast aluminium belt guard which carries a "PF" casting number. This confirms the historical information regarding the original model designation.

Greg

Hi Greg,

Looking good, looks like a real treasure.

I reckon if you stand on one side of the hangar, with the mill on the other, you might be able to photograph all of it!

Ken

I'm starting to feel like Oliver Twist with my continual pleading for more...

I take it the rear handwheel shown in the post no.5 photos, is for manual spindle rotation. How hard is it to reach around to the rear of the machine while observing the spindle? The Schaublin does not have a similar feature. I put the machine in neutral and turn the spindle by hand.

The paintwork on the Perrin appears to be in reasonable nick and looks like it was the original colour. It's refreshing to acquire a machine that has not been subjected to the typical overcoat of left over fence paint.

What is the story regarding the table lead screw?

BT

The paint is 85-90% unmolested. Which brings up the conundrum of what to do with it? Patch the small failed areas and try to blend in some new overcoat? Not my decision, thankfully.

It's the perfect shade of pastel machine green, almost creamy.

Ken, I tried for an overall shot, but the light was too poor. Probably tomorrow.
The machine isn't as large as it appears: as tall as my jacked-up Deckel.

Bob, the handwheel is for jogging the spindle for easier gear changes. Same on the Deckel. On both machines it is easy to reach while observing the spindle nose. Of course the unorthodox operator position, at the side of the machine, allows easy access to all of the controls on the Deckel. The Perrin had a couple of feed controls in the front of the table. (The later U-0 was chaos in comparison with things on all four sides of the mill)

The table feed screw and all of the respective powerfeed linkages are missing, and were replaced with Festo pneumatic cylinders for push/pull sometime ago. A very elaborately designed series of limit and control switches was employed, along with well made brackets. That's all been removed now.

Plan "A"

That leaves us with trying to ascertain the original dimensions of the 5 t.p.i leadscrew. The screw will be an unconventional acme: imperial pitch on metric stock (The vertical screw is 24mm X 5 t.p.i.) It is of course an imperial machine). Anyway, these screws have a drive slot cut down most of their length, have thrust bearings, handwheels, micrometer adjust dials and DIN nuts for endplay adjustment.

We are also going to have to fabricate all of the missing feed linkages and modify the machine to have a Deckel-like feed lever on the operator's side instead of the original two-lever arrangement (also missing)

Plan "B"

The other option is to investigate stepper motors on the z and x axes. The owner does not want to go down the CNC road. If there was an elegant way to do electronic handwheels* and feeds on a stepper leadscrew I think that would be a promising avenue. As always costs are a consideration.

*there are probably many, but I am (wilfully) ignorant of any of them.

GQ

Mike came over for an hour of shop time today. We got the horizontal slide removed (Y axis). We had to remove the feedscrew attach bracket (pesky taper pins and bolts. There's always one taper pin that gets stuck. This one was one more attempt away from getting a root canal when it finally popped out.

The gib was then removed and the assembly slid forward and off the main casting. That was a two man lift...must weigh 60 kg or so.

1. The main casting, base and coolant pump. Those three items are getting divorced tomorrow, along with the saddle. Those pink patches are body filler, but I don't think we'll worry about paint until the machine is working again.

2. The spindle in its sliding housing, on the floor.

1. The electrical bay, junk and grease removed and wires cut back. (They'll all go on sparky day, most probably the 54 year old switch too)

2. The upper most of the three gear box shafts. This one is the long gear which allows the spindle so much sliding range. (The spindle has a gear 20mm thick which stays in mesh with this one.)

Here's cool bit of Swiss-ology: They used a hollow shaft for the large gear so that the acme feedscrew could be mounted co-axially since it travels with the sliding housing

3. Surrounding the gear is an elaborate felt wiper set-up. Its pretty much had it, something else for the shopping list.

4. Got swarf?

1. This machine has been overhauled before. The ways have been flycut, or face milled. And left like that! No attempt was made to scrape them in for bearing or alignment. We'll fix that before we re-attach the head. Some light score marks evident from swarf ingress.

The gib still bears its original Swiss scraping marks (distinctive pull-scraping, typical of the Swiss). Everything else has these milling marks.

2. This is the Y-axis handwheel set-up. A bevel gear pair drives a captive acme nut. The screw remains fixed to the sliding head and does not turn. The entire assembly moves forward and back 150mm, the screw passes into the hollow gear box shaft for that long gear

3. The Deckel looks on pensively. Its going to get decapitated too after the Perrin leaves the shop.

Mike and I independently noticed a Perrin U-1A for sale in Europe last week, but only on one of those machine-seeker type websites. Last night Google coughed up the actual dealer, so I sent an email to a PM member in Denmark asking for help (which was offered instantly)

At the same time Mike just grabbed the phone and rang the guy in Denmark. They had quite a conversation as it turns out, and after Easter he is going to send photos and measurements of the missing pieces.


The seller, Robert Peterson Machines is a long time dealer, and used to sell their own line of mills throughout Denmark. He said that his is the first Perrin he's ever seen, and that he's impressed with it. Me too.