Thread: A question on steel "DNA"

Yes I can see definite similarities (a bit stronger than that actually).

Originally Posted by BobL

bobs your uncle.

You are? I never knew that!

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Are you sure about that?



The external packaging says "Vallorbe Swiss" (shrink wrapped card for retail hanging).

First time I see that logo. And that file does not exactly look like a quality file to me. So I did some googling. Came up with a possible explanation on the webpage from a German tool supplier:
Aus Grobet wird Glardon | DICTUM GmbH - Mehr als Werkzeug
Grobet becomes Glardon

The company UMV from Vallorbe (Switzerland) is a manufacturer of precision and needle files.

These kinds of files have until recently been distributed under the different brand names "Grobet" and "Glardon", depending on the region. UMV now decided to distribute their files under the brand name "Glardon", which will only mean a change in the brand name.

The products will continue to be manufactured in Switzerland and offer the same outstanding quality.




I am still not sure what exactly is going on. But looks like the Swiss may try to distance themselves from an American company called GrobetUSA. The above website is from 2013, so it may be something new. I also visited the American website Grobetusa:
Welcome to Grobet USA.com
And as far as I can tell, "Grobet USA" is a generic tool supplier. They have not much in common with the Swiss company UMV in Vallorbe, that only makes files and nothing but files. Maybe the problem is, that the name Grobet is a registered trademark in the US (after all its just a family name), and this is the reason the Swiss file makers decided to change their product name? Maybe Grobet USA was the official importer for the Swiss files, then decided to market India made files under their own name? All speculation, I do not know.

What I do now is that I just 2 months ago bought Vallorbe files from the UK. They do bear the good old Vallorbe stamp. And they are well made. Chris

PS: I do not think you need to spend money on a metal analysis - the files on your pics are not quality files, regardless where they come from or not come from.
PPS: I would stay away from files with a printed logo. Or would you buy a micrometer withe the name Mitutoyo printed on it?

Hi Brett,

I'm going out on a limb here and I think those Grobet files are fakes... what should you do next is the question, Maybe you should consider sending them to Grobet in Switzerland with a letter complaining about the quality and see what they have to say?

Regards
Ray

PS.. I haven't forgotten about the Nicholson info you were after, I've just been too busy playing with the new Deckel...

Good work Chris!

So I clicked on Tools....Files....Saw Files on that site, which takes me to this page. It doesn't mention UMV or Glardon but proclaims the saw files as "F.D" and the site is "Dick Herdum" if you look right up the top.

Along with the sorry looking file I posted in this thread, I also took delivery of an identical file printed "F.Dick" in the same ink and font as the "Grobet" I posted here earlier. It is these two files that I suggest come from the same factory.

Now I just wonder what "F.D" files are??? I purchased the Dick Files (a singularly appropriate name) from Dieter Schmid Fine Tools about ten days ago. I may have to email Dictum to get the lowdown. I have already outlayed about $300 or more in gathering a bunch of files to send to three testers, so am loathe to spend any more until I know the exact provenance of the product.

One of the main reasons why I have started a separate thread to find out some more info is that I'm trying to keep the testers in the dark as to what files they will be receiving - all distinguishing marks will be ground off before they receive them. I also wanted input from more of the metalheads, on what is really a woodworking topic.

I have also just posted this in the main thread:
The best way to get a manufacturer to listen to us is to present them with hard data.

With that in mind, I have started on online petition which you can see here. If you want a result then please support the petition, even if you think it might be a silly idea - can't hurt to try.

Send the link to anyone you know that has an interest in this troublesome subject.

Anyone reading this thread is also welcome to participate (it's just two clicks as a bare minimum).

Originally Posted by RayG

Hi Brett,

I'm going out on a limb here and I think those Grobet files are fakes... what should you do next is the question, Maybe you should consider sending them to Grobet in Switzerland with a letter complaining about the quality and see what they have to say?

Regards
Ray

PS.. I haven't forgotten about the Nicholson info you were after..No worries

In one way I'd like to think you're right Ray, but I suspect not. I now have three file "brands" from three different sources:
Dieter Schmid Fine Tools - F.Dick file
JPM Tools in Melbourne - FL Grobet pictured here (via the NZ distributor of Vallorbe - whatever that means these days)
Jim Davey Woodworm in Nowra - Grobet USA

They are all the bloody same! Printed logos, scratches, crap teeth, same colour. This is what has lead me to think they are all from the same factory and just badged differently.

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

. . . .
PS: I do not think you need to spend money on a metal analysis - the files on your pics are not quality files, regardless where they come from or not come from.

I agree - even if you find out they are all made by the same company it won't improve them in any way.

....................Now I just wonder what "F.D" files are???...............................

Friedrich Dick, a maker of butcher's knifes and files:
Friedr. DICK - Files+rasps

Originally Posted by BobL

I agree - even if you find out they are all made by the same company it won't improve them in any way.

Indeed.

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

....................Now I just wonder what "F.D" files are???...............................

Friedrich Dick, a maker of butcher's knifes and files:
Friedr. DICK - Files+rasps

I've sent them an email.

One of the hits on Google had me concerned for a moment:
"FD files for bankruptcy in US" until i read that FD stood for something else.


Fair dinkum, this is starting to get fair up my nose! This is the F.D. file:


You can quite clearly see that "F.DICK" is printed on it. It's exactly the same file as I received this week. BUGGER!

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

One of the hits on Google had me concerned for a moment:
"FD files for bankruptcy in US"

Fair dinkum, this is starting to get fair up my nose!

Now you are mixing two things up (its getting late...). The above link is about bankruptcy of Fairchild/Dornier, an airplane maker. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the German knife and file maker F. Dick.

PS: I could bet that name is either stamped or etched - no reputable file maker would ever print his name on a file. It would come off the first time you use a file card for cleaning it. Reputable file makers are proud to display their name permanently on their products!

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Indeed.

I think you have to be a bit careful here and not impune any makers brand names without some good proof.

On the face of it,it does sound like there are some questions that should be answered as to the quality and provenance of these files.
The whole issue revolves around fitness for purpose.You have paid good dollars for brand name tools which at one time did the work they were meant to do and now the new tools do not.

The outcomes you are seeking ,presumably are to establish "

• That the file base material (I think they are 1095 carbon steel) is correct.
• That the heat treatment of the suspect files has not been up to standard.

Something I would do ,would be to take a known good quality file and try it on the suspect files.Immediately this will tell you what you need to know.If the files are indeed bad you be able to file them and not skid off them as would happen on a quality file.

Take photos of the suspect files and respective packages( this will help establish if they were forgeries) and send them to the manufacturer perhaps through the their local rep who if they are doing their job would then get your suspect files analyzed with a spectra graphic gas analyzer or what ever the latest equivalent is.

That should save you a dollar or two.

Also are you aware the Japanese do a good quality saw file? I saw them on FleaBay.

Cheers

Grahame

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

Now you are mixing two things up (its getting late...). The above link is about bankruptcy of Fairchild/Dornier, an airplane maker. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the German knife and file maker F. Dick.

No, I was just saying it made my eyes pop when I first saw it on the Google hit list. i didn't realise the link had copied, as I only copied the first half of it. Will edit for clarity.

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

PS: I could bet that name is either stamped or etched - no reputable file maker would ever print his name on a file. It would come off the first time you use a file card for cleaning it. Reputable file makers are proud to display their name permanently on their products!

You mean like this superb looking bit of clearly 100% Swiss made kit?



Ahem! 'fraid not (sorry about the red copy being hard to read).



...but if it's not too late, I'll take your bet gladly!