Thread: A question on steel "DNA"

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

G'day



So, my main question is: does steel have a specific "DNA" to each mill/factory? In other words, should unlimited funds suddenly become available, would it be possible to prove that the files did indeed come from the same source, and are just badged up differently on various days of the week?

Any thoughts on that?

Cheers
FF

Look up Isotopic and elemental finger printing. Its the same method used to identify if someone says they have never been to Afghanistan but they have.

The actual steel probably comes from Australia anyway Brett. It's not inconceivable that the blanks are stamped enmasse in one foundry and shipped to different file manufacturers all over the world, or as you say to one manufacturer. Either way, same blank quality, same finished file quality.

Thanks Bob. The vast majority of the hits are related to organic material. However, it has given me some people that I can email to see who might be a specialist in metals. Maybe I'll contact CSIRO next week. I wonder how much a test like that would cost....

Tony, yes I'd say you are prolly correct, although it may just be the Aussie Iron Ore that goes out.

There may well be a clue in the Pearlite (or whatever it is - still can't find out for sure) that forms on the surface of them during hardening or tempering.


According to one source, it is the process that adds the greatest value which determines how the "Made in X" can be declared. In the case of a "Swiss" file, that could just be putting the bloody thing in the packaging that adds the greatest monetary value. Oh yeah, he might inspect as well, there's another 1 Swiss Franc value add to a 10 Rupee cost (1 SF = 70 Rupees).

Whilst i can't help with the question, i will say those files are appalling. The poor surface finish and score marks would definitely cause weak spots, especially since they are there pre hardening. The sharper the corner the weaker the point is....
The Liogier files are real nice, they have had a workout of late.

Cheers,
Ew

"Look up Isotopic and elemental finger printing. Its the same method used to identify if someone says they have never been to Afghanistan but they have." BobL

Does this mean that they have your picture "on file"?

Poor joke - I'll now pull my head in and withdraw in my shell!

regards, Ned

Who's files are they? They're BAD!

Look up forensic mass spectrometry.

If you can get it done for under a few thousand per item, I will fall off my chair!

("Excusing me please, today is Tuesday. On Tuesdays we are producing Swiss Grobet files - you are please changing the ink - tomorrow is Grobet USA day").


David Borloz, Antoine Glardon and F.L. Grobet are the three ancient file makers, that founded the Usines Metallurgiques de Vallorbes in the valley of the river Orbe. Their products are nowdays known as "Vallorbe Swiss". Some of the finest files you can buy.
The guarantee of ancient know-how

Another fine file maker is Honauer in the city of kriens, Switzerland
E. Honauer AG, File-and Tool-Factory, CH-6010 Kriens / file, files, Feile, Feilen, lima, lime, limas, limes

I own many swiss files (they last a long time). I can assure you none of the products from Vallorbe or Honauer resemble the least your pictures. Brand name is always stamped, not printed. They are not cheap, but think about it: you spend a lot of time and sweat working with a file - if you value your time, you may as well buy the best files. And the best vices.

I have no idea who is Grobet/usa though. They appear to sell Vallorbe files, but they may make their own thing too. Chris

Not quite sure what you're saying there Chris.

It's a pity that Honauer don't make saw files.

Forgot to mention: in case you are after a particular kind of file, Honauer will make special files to your order. If required, they can still hand cut files for you. At a price of course, you get what you pay for. But if you want something that is not available anymore to sharpen saws or the like, why not have it made?
E. Honauer AG, File-and Tool-Factory, CH-6010 Kriens / file, files, Feile, Feilen, lima, lime, limas, limes
E. Honauer AG, File-and Tool-Factory, CH-6010 Kriens / file, files, Feile, Feilen, lima, lime, limas, limes

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

I can assure you none of the products from Vallorbe or Honauer resemble the least your pictures. Brand name is always stamped, not printed.

Are you sure about that?



The external packaging says "Vallorbe Swiss" (shrink wrapped card for retail hanging).

Originally Posted by Master Splinter

Look up forensic mass spectrometry.

If you can get it done for under a few thousand per item, I will fall off my chair!

I could be wrong but my knowledge of Mass Spectrometry is it's a type of analysis that gives you the presence and relative abundance of various elements and all their isotope constituents. Not sure how many isotopes of Fe there are, maybe 3 or 4 and they are present in relative abundances that vary in different places on earth. So, looking at the relative amounts of the isotopes of Fe, one can work out which country or perhaps even which Ore mine they came from. It may even be that certain ores have unusually high amounts of a different element that give it their "signature" Eg. Australian Ore may have a telltale sign of a high amount of Sn in it.... Dunno.

All good and well as long as all the Fe came from the one place. If it was made up of recycled steel from various places of origin and various grades then this "signature" may get a little confused. Not sure.

I have heard a saying... You can't make strawberry jam out of ####. I assume it's the same with good quality steel. Then again, a very bad manufacturer I'm sure can still make #### out of strawberry jam!

Simon

Originally Posted by simonl

I could be wrong but my knowledge of Mass Spectrometry is it's a type of analysis that gives you the presence and relative abundance of various elements and all their isotope constituents. Not sure how many isotopes of Fe there are, maybe 3 or 4 and they are present in relative abundances that vary in different places on earth. So, looking at the relative amounts of the isotopes of Fe, one can work out which country or perhaps even which Ore mine they came from.

I have measured Fe in a mass spectrometer - it's not easy, in fact it is one of the more difficult elements to analyse isotopically. The isotopic compositions of Fe in Fe ore bodies all over the world has not been performed so that is in itself a MAJOR research project, and besides, the source of the iron ore would may not help FF's quest. Before we can offer any more help FF really needs to state his hypothesis.

Originally Posted by BobL

Before we can offer any more help FF really needs to state his hypothesis.

Easy done Bob. I have three files here supposedly from at least two manufacturers (I know that sounds a bit odd). I'll be a monkey's if they don't all come out of the same Indian factory.

Edit: One of the "manufacturers" has already verbally confirmed that their files have been made in India for the last 20 years.