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  1. #1
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    Default Roller grinder ways/ plain grinder ways

    Reading Bob's comment about the Hercus plain ways vs. The AR5E roller ways sent me searching for pictures of roller ways because I can't picture what a roller way looks like.
    One of the things I found was that there is a company who makes conversion kits (although they are apparently not cheap). The product looks like this -

    http://www.dunbarrollers.com/images/drk.jpg

    Made me wonder whether a version could be made with dowel pins - perhaps in sockets (The commercial version has hollow pins on an axle). The most amazing claim for this system is that it requires no lubrication - although a clean is recommended every 6 months

    Thoughts anyone?
    Michael

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  3. #2
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    I don't know about roller ways but ball ways may be easier to implement. Here's a photo of the ball bearing ways in a Makino C40 tool & cutter grinder, the model dates from the late 1950's, this one is from 1966 if I recall correctly. The ways are actually hardened steel and are removable. I don't know if they have to be ground in situ or whether you can slip a new set in to replace a worn set.

    Cheers,
    Mark


  4. #3
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    Thanks for the picture Mark
    I guess the thing about the roller system is that it can be refitted to machines with plain ways without much of a change to the basic machine (the kit could be removed). On the other hand, using a series of balls as featured in the Makino would need the ways machined to provide upper and lower Vs for the balls to roll in. The same would apply to crossed rollers too.
    Another issue is hardness of the ways. Some comments were made about the hardness of the ways and the pressure that steel balls or rollers would put on the cast iron. Personally I can't see that being a major problem - provided the table was not used for impact loads like centre punching first, any load should be reasonably evenly distributed and comparatively light. However, it is a possibility.
    Last issue is I guess is the flatness of the ways. To get proper load transfer the ways would have to be flat (ground or scraped). If the ways were properly scraped, would the rollers provide a great improvement or just a minor one? (Worth the cost of conversion?) For any grinder likely to live in my shed, it would only be used occasionally. A good scraped surface with oil pockets may be better than rollers/ balls where the oil has drained off - although the oil shouldn't take long to get back

    Doin' a lot of guessing here
    Michael

  5. #4
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    Default

    Roller ways are used on TC grinders due to the low friction requirements... If you are sharpening a cutter you want an easy to move table that is sensitive to the touch..

    With regards to plain ways versus ball ways on surface and cylindrical grinders, at least in the past cast on cast ways were superior...

    In today's world of enclosed linear ways, I would not have a clue as to what is better.
    Light red, the colour of choice for the discerning man.

  6. #5
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael G View Post
    Reading Bob's comment about the Hercus plain ways vs. The AR5E roller ways sent me searching for pictures of roller ways because I can't picture what a roller way looks like.
    One of the things I found was that there is a company who makes conversion kits (although they are apparently not cheap). The product looks like this -

    http://www.dunbarrollers.com/images/drk.jpg

    Made me wonder whether a version could be made with dowel pins - perhaps in sockets (The commercial version has hollow pins on an axle). The most amazing claim for this system is that it requires no lubrication - although a clean is recommended every 6 months

    Thoughts anyone?

    Michael
    Hey Michael,


    The Dunbar set up looks like it is intended as a retrofit to the alleviate the problem of sliding friction found on vee ways. The original ways would need to be in good nick. The Hercus ways would need milling down to a uniform height and then the laborious task of scraping could commence. Something to look forward to.

    Bob.

  7. #6
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    It would probably be easier to buy a machine second hand with the desired ways, but then where's the fun in that. I suspect that hand scraped ways may be too uneven compared with a ground surface for the line contact of rollers. I wonder how some sort of reinforced teflon on telfon would go along with a total loss oiling system. If a bit of grit was embedded in the teflon at least it would only rub against the other strip of teflon. If it was a failure you could simply peel it off and go back to the original condition. Teflon needs treatment for glue to stick to it though.

  8. #7
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    Default

    Hi Michael,

    Here's the roller ways on the Cincinatti #2 T&C Grinder



    The T&C grinder harty has, which is a Russian version of the Cincinatti, has rollers as well.

    Regards
    Ray

  9. #8
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    That's an interesting way to have rollers and also apply drive too as the chain would move at half the speed of the rollers, looks like gears for a rack and pinion too though.

    Anyone know the model number for the old flat belt drive up the column Cincinnati tool & cutter grinder?. I suspect it's also a No.2 but the earliest version without the tilting motorised head. I've seen one apart and it has the ball rollers like the Makino.

  10. #9
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    Hi Graziano,

    The centre belt drive head is what mine is, I'm not sure about model numbers, there were so many over such a long time, and subtle variations depending on where they were made makes it almost impossible...

    Here's a few models... I think mine is closest to the EM model, but made in Birmingham..

    https://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/ci...ml#post1448951

    Regards
    Ray

  11. #10
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    Default

    So Ray - what takes the load there? Is the table sitting on the roll chain (which are supported underneath?). If that were the case I would have thought there would be too much variation up and down.

    Michael

  12. #11
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    Hi Michael,

    I don't have a good picture, but the table has flat ways that ride on the rollers, and as it happens they are worn in the middle on mine.. so yes it goes up and down..



    Regards
    Ray

  13. #12
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    my russian copy of the number 2 has rollers as ray has said but uses a similar system to the ball rollers to hold them in position not the chain
    if i put a dial indicator on the table the maximum deviation from total table travel is .0001" so it seems to work very well
    they changed the system for some reason to balls could be related to problems from grit getting in i suspect the ball system would be less affected by this as you have a much reduced contact area

    cheers
    Harty

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