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Thread: Shaper Heading my way!
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4th February 2014, 03:00 PM #31GOLD MEMBER
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Been there done that......at $120 a VSD I'm not sure its worth the trouble. I used 2 x 3 phase sockets(about $40 each) so I could change to other machines easily if required.....the plugs cost $26 each. At least hard wiring would save you that money. I might have a 4 pole double throw center off switch kicking around but thats not really what you are after.The 4th pole is used to switch the vsd controls from one machine to the other. The control side of things being run through an 8 pin plug. (hey you could switch it with 6 pole contactors )
Remember you dont want to go overboard on the 3 phase wiring length(though if I remember correctly, "overboard" kicks in around 15m so thats not likely to be a problem). I have plenty of din rail terminal blocks you might find handy.
Have you seen a picture of my setup?
Dont like the sound of your jog function. You want me to be able to jog the lathe from the shaper while you're setting up the 4 jaw???(though with a VSD ramping up it might not be a huge issue I'm guessing you'll still need a change of clothes)
Maybe not hard to come by but in their day I doubt they were cheap.
Arent bushes better than bearings at slower speeds???
Stuart
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4th February 2014, 10:07 PM #32GOLD MEMBER
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How am I supposed to know? You're the expert! Sounds feasible though. One thing that had occurred to me about bushes (and I don't mean from the 1970's) is that they allow for some end play. Ball bearings don't allow for this. This maybe a consideration but dunno.
WRT VFD sharing, cheapest VFD I can find is about $150 delivered. With no plugs and hard wired into a 4 position 3 phase switch ($15 delivered) and some other switch gear, I reckon I can make it happen and save some cash. The mill, lathe (yet to be converted) and shaper are all within 2 - 3 Metres of each other, all have 3 HP 4 pole motors and so are quite happy to run with all the same settings. The JOG function: Well yes it would probably be neater and safer to disable any inputs from other machines other than the "chosen" machine which I think I will do. Mind you this would be more of an issue if I had others in the shed with me which I nearly never do.
Either way, I must confess to not really looking forward to interfering with the VFD wiring. I can't remember what every wire does so things may get a little crazy before it all works properly!
SimonGirl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.
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4th February 2014, 10:23 PM #33GOLD MEMBER
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So not. for the most part bearings are a mystery to me.
You mean you didnt write it down? tut tut
Might be nice if you add some more poles to your switch. If I recall correctly the reason I have one speed pot is that "I believe" you need to switch all three wires to use seprate pots on each machine. So 7 pole would be a nice start. A lot of the swtiches I think you're talking about can just piggyback so within reason you can add as many as you think you'll need. I'll head out the shed tomorrow and see if I can come up with anything useful.
Stuart
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5th February 2014, 07:44 AM #34GOLD MEMBER
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Go easy Stuart, there's no rush! I got the folder I need to plod along with yet. Trying so hard not to get distracted.
WRT the pot, I would have thought you could get away with switching 2 of the 3 wires. The third wire cannot make a complete circuit without at least one other and so the VFD would not see a reduced resistance?
The reason for the 4 pole 3 position switch was purely for the 3 phase, not the switching. I would have thought it custom to not have a switch that did both the power and control circuit in one? All in one switch would be neater though if you think it's OK.
Done nothing in the shed Yesterday, I got man flue. Now I think I've past it onto the wife and my son!
Edit: No I didn't right it down!
SimonGirl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.
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5th February 2014, 05:58 PM #35Philomath in training
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Could be a number of reasons. Plain bearings (bushes) can take more load but then again have more friction and have to be lubricated (although maintenance free versions do exist). Rolling element (RE) bearings in some varieties can be lubricated for life. Bushes are better for partial rotations as RE bearings can fret.
Historically, RE bearings have only been around a few hundred years and I imagine that the first examples were a bit rough. In the days when foundries were common I suspect that plain bearings were seen as cheap, reliable and trouble free. As higher speed devices became more common demand for RE bearings would have increased.
Michael
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5th February 2014, 06:05 PM #36GOLD MEMBER
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Thanks Michael.
SimonGirl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.
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5th February 2014, 06:26 PM #37
Nice work getting the shaper rolling so quickly, how about some action pictures..
In theory you could get away with just switching one wire, run +10V and common around the machines, the pot wiper is switched between machines.
Seem like a lot of effort for not much reward, easier to just get a few more VFD's, and then you'd have spares if one broke down.
Ray
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5th February 2014, 09:06 PM #38GOLD MEMBER
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Hi Ray,
Hey, if I use one VFD to do 3 machines I'll save $300! With a mortgage, kids (one with special needs) & a dog, I'll save and skimp wherever I can! As for a lot of trouble? Well I could save myself a whole lot of trouble and just not have a shed full of machines! But where would the fun be in that!
WRT the POT, if you have 3 10K pots in parallel (which is what you need for 3 machines) then the VFD would not see a 10K pot but a 3.3K pot. This would require 3 times the current to flow from the VFD through the combined pots. Would the VFD speed control still work under these conditions? Would you be better to choose 30K pots under those circumstances? I understand that the wiper is merely a voltage divider providing a 0 - 10V for the speed but instead of 10/10,000 or 10mA of current, there would be 30 mA.
Your thoughts?
As for a shaper video? I have never posted a video. How do I do that? Through Youtube?
SimonGirl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.
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5th February 2014, 09:21 PM #39
Hi Simon,
The extra current won't make any difference, the pot rotation vs voltage will be a curve rather than a straight line.
Ray
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5th February 2014, 09:32 PM #40
Videos? Second time that was asked today. Video section at top of page just under the main Heading. I have not uploaded a video so I cannot explain how. Can't be too hard.
Only 1 wire in common for the pots. The other wires are separate and switched. There is no circuit completed from the 2 unused pots then.
I am following this thread because it may be useful for me. I think I may have too much variation between motor size tho.
Dean
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5th February 2014, 10:23 PM #41GOLD MEMBER
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Thanks Ray.
Hi Dean, Yea OK I'll give it a crack. Maybe tomorrow….. WRT the pot, Ray is correct, only the wiper needs to be switched. The 0V and 10V can be connected to all the machines (3 in my case) without affecting the operation of the speed control. Actually, in the case of the shaper I would be happy to keep the speed fixed at approx 1500 rpm (or at 50Hz) I could be wrong but I see no need to vary a shaper speed electronically. That would mean 2 pots and perhaps a trimpot (for the shaper) set at the correct speed.
Cheers,
SimonGirl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.
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12th February 2014, 08:25 AM #42GOLD MEMBER
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Hi all,
With the heat and now back at work from 4 weeks leave, I'm finding little motivation to get out in the shed and continue on with my folder. But, I having been getting acquainted with my new shaper. As mentioned earlier, the owner prior to Harty nearly killed it with love! He thought all the oil lube points (about a million of them) were grease nipples. Needless to say, every moving part is full of sticky grease mixed with swarf. While I have no time to do a complete strip and rebuild (this may be a future project) I did at least want to get things clean so as not to introduce unnecessary wear or damage whilst in my care. I can accept 50 years of wear but realistically a machine like this in my hands should not see any more appreciable wear for the rest of its life! So I did what a call a "meet and greet". It's what I like to do with all my machines (old and new). Stripping down every part, cleaning and inspecting and putting it back together. It also gives me a good mental picture of the condition of the parts and what parts may need attention if I were to rebuild it in the future.
The bull gear and the big pendulum beam thingy that moves the ram back and forth were the most difficult to remove. Mainly because of their weight. The bull gear and it's bearing have an appreciable amount of wear and some really big gouges, yet surprisingly there is little if any play in the bearing. While I do not intend to do any mod or repair at this stage, it did make me think how one would go about a repair on this or in fact any similar bearing that is metal on cast iron. Is a bronze sleeve the only option or can you do a dodgy and use some metal filler and machine it back to tolerance?
Anyway, one thing leads to another with me and now I'm looking at all the nice clean parts and think it would be a shame not to at least give the rough cast parts a coat of paint! The original colour of these cast parts is the usual browny/red colour, almost a red oxide. Any suggestions of the colour I should use for these castings. A kill rust colour would suite me best. I'm thinking of a red?
Pics to follow, for anyone interested.
SimonGirl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.
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12th February 2014, 09:30 AM #43GOLD MEMBER
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Pic1: Ram
Pic2: Bull gear
Pic3: Bull gear eccentric shaft that drives the pendulum thingy
Pic4: Bull gear bearing outer
Pic5: Bull gear main shaft
Pic6: Pendulum thingy being cleaned
Pic7: Shaper ways
Pic8: Various parts cleaned
Pic9: Idler gear (drives the bull gear. It's had a hard life!)
I find it interesting how the idler gear (gear that couples the final drive from the gearbox to the bull gear) has a bush. No other gear is bushed, they are all on CI bearings. Either there is a specific reason for this or I suspect it is a repair done previously.
There was an awful lot of grease that needed removing, it was a big dirty job requiring degreaser, turps and jet washing. Luckily I just happened to find a SS tub on someones nature strip the other day. It's pretty big and is perfect for the job. Who knows, I may convert into a dedicated parts washer……...
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Cheers
SimonGirl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.
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12th February 2014, 05:10 PM #44
Simon, I think I mentioned this before: originally many machines were red or black inside. However, I find that the machines I painted WHITE inside are much easier to maintain, keep clean and find things that have fallen in somewhere - or out of something inside. You can also immediately see when something has started leaking and exactly where from. Anyway, that would be my choice for inside colour.
Cheers,
Joe
9"thicknesser/planer, 12" bench saw, 2Hp Dusty, 5/8" Drill press, 10" Makita drop saw, 2Hp Makita outer, the usual power tools and carpentry hand tools...
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12th February 2014, 05:48 PM #45
Hi Simon.
Interesting to see the differences from mine. Re the drive (pinion) gear bush. That is still a steel/cast arrangement on my shaper, but it has quite a bit of wear. This is all discussed in my shaper thread. The Bull Gear is bearing surfaces are in better shape. This would suggest to me that your drive gear has had the bush fitted later. The drive gear does far more revolutions than the bull gear.
Removing the bull gear and pendulum thingy (Rocker Arm). Very carefully. My main concern was for my fingers. I did not relish the thought of squishing my pinkies.
Don't think I am in any way clever for knowing the names of parts. I refer to a PDF book I have. Suggested unit course in shaper work 1944. I think I got it from a link on the forum. http://www.scribd.com/doc/129000456/...aper-Work-1944
Joe.
Thanks for the heads up on using white paint inside, after I had almost finished with the matt black. I already had the black anyway and it needed using up.
Dean
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