Thread: New shed. Buy or build

Originally Posted by .RC.

Are there any restrictions on who can build what? I know some areas are highly restricted on what you can build yourself, requiring engineers drawings and certifications in some areas.. In other areas like around here, it is a free for all... Do what you like, when you like..

I needed planning & building permit. Planning was dead simple, building permit less so. They wanted to argue about my shed design, claimed it wasn't structurally adequate but wouldn't tell me where or why as 'that could be constituted as giving building advice'. Since I've played this game before I took my plans to a certified structural engineer, paid him $200 to put his official PE stamp on them and resubmitted them. Professional engineer opinion overrides council building inspector, game over. Worth every cent to save the time & argument. If you buy a kit shed you pay *more* than retail for the materials. There is no economy of scale yet they carry little or no stock, each shed has a cutting list they send to the steel merchants. In effect you're paying for engineering approval and not having to do your own bill of materials. Screw that for a joke, my big shed came in at LESS than anyone I got to quote including the full concrete slab and footings. If I were to build another one I'd definitely do it myself. I also wouldn't use rolled C section for posts, I far prefer 75 x 75 x 3 Duragal RHS. However in non-termite areas like Tasmania, I prefer a timber frame because every time I've ever built a steel framed shed, the first thing I do it line it, and that is a lot easier with studs every 450mm. My current one has 125 x 80 hardwood studs everywhere I might want some decent vertical support. PDW

I should also add that as part of the building permit, the engineer wanted a summary of costs to build. This included shed cost, concreting for footings, drainage, labour (even had to include my own labour!) The point being that if your building project tops over $12,000 then you are deemed an owner builder and need to take out building & liability insurance, not to mention a host of other precautions that will no doubt cost! Needless to say, when I submitted my quote to the engineer it came in at $11,700. He just looked at me and smiled, we both new it was a bit more than that!

Simon

I should also add that as part of the building permit, the engineer wanted a summary of costs to build. This included shed cost, concreting for footings, drainage, labour (even had to include my own labour!) The point being that if your building project tops over $12,000 then you are deemed an owner builder and need to take out building & liability insurance, not to mention a host of other precautions that will no doubt cost! Needless to say, when I submitted my quote to the engineer it came in at $11,700. He just looked at me and smiled, we both new it was a bit more than that!

Simon

Phil

I currently have four shipping containers in the back yard. Two are the basis for a shed. One is SWMBO's studio, which is now finished except for painting and installation of an air-conditioner, and the last belongs to my son. I have to head off to work in the next few minutes, but I will come back with some thoughts tomorrow.

I did see a comment about high cube, but they are only 150mm higher so I would not get too concerned about that, but if one came along certainly go with it. One essential is that the the box is weather and vermin proof and the doors open and close easily. They will not do this on uneven ground so a solid, level footing is essential.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

I did see a comment about high cube, but they are only 150mm higher so I would not get too concerned about that, but if one came along certainly go with it.

Totally wrong, a high cube is 9'6" high, a standard container is 8' high. This makes a HUGE difference to usability given the interior space is less than the total height. I had a lot of them so I am not speaking from information I googled up, I'm speaking from personal experience based on extended use. PDW

Originally Posted by PDW

Totally wrong, a high cube is 9'6" high, a standard container is 8' high. This makes a HUGE difference to usability given the interior space is less than the total height. I had a lot of them so I am not speaking from information I googled up, I'm speaking from personal experience based on extended use. PDW

PDW is correct here, and a high cube is much more user friendly IMO. There are also refrigerated containers, aka reefers, which are well insulated, although not as strong in the walls as a normal container. They are however lined on the interior walls and ceiling with stainless steel sheet, and have a floor of aluminium profile with a square wave shape, - about 30X30mm as I recall. This is to allow recirculating cold air from the refrigeration unit to pass under the palletised contents, and most likely to allow condensate to drain as well. For a workshop it would be best to cover this with plywood or similar.
There are also containers with side openings, so with some creative thinking perhaps a side by side setup which would provide a 5m width, or more if needed in 2.5m increments, which would make usable layouts easier to provide with larger machines. It's hard to beat a real shed though, and if you keep your eyes open for second hand sheds, serious bargains are to had from time to time. Good luck,
Rob.

Phil if you are strapped for cash you could start with a secondhand shed, metal shed'/'garage (4 x 7.5m) approx | Other Home & Garden | Gumtree Australia Mornington Peninsula - Mornington | 1052494128

and use the money for the permits on the slab I won't tell

This wasn't what you were asking Steamwhispere, but when you do get around to a shed, the cheapest quote isn't cheap because the guy is more efficient and is working on lower margins than the other guys. He is cheap because he is skimping on materials and the certification is dodgy.

I did the shed thing about 8 years ago, bought from a reputable shed company and had them erect it. I got a few quotes and was appalled at the variation in the specs of some of the frames quoted. Its an industry that has more than a few cowboys.

One local company quotes cross bracing as an extra, apparently you don't really need cross bracing because the wall and roof cladding do that job adequately. There are a few sheds around that have developed crinkly wall sheeting after a big blow.

Re 100mm concrete slabs, from what I see the price per square metre laid (levelling, reo, boxing, labour) is usually about 40% of the retail cubic metre price. Around here concrete is $160/m3, laid price is $65/m2

Hi all,
first up, thanks for the congrats.
Also many thanks to everyone for keeping everything crossed. It worked!
Well, I thought I had thought of nearly everything, now I have a lot to think about.

Ken and Ray,
I hadn't thought about calling it a garage, it seems they are a bit cheaper for the same thing. It's odd but I have built extended and added to the side, roof etc. of many sheds and had put building my own out of the question.
It's back on the plan now. One of the blokes at work teaches metal fab at the university here and has designs for a roof truss that minimises the waste from 8 metre lengths of steel. I just need to get the comps re-done and I can go ahead as I can afford it.

Grahame and Bob Ward,
What shocked me was the vast array of steel quality and gauge available. I have to stick to a certain minimum because of the wind rating etc. here and I would be the customer from hell as I would probably be there suggesting they do it this way and that way and saying things like " do you think that will be strong enough".

Bradford and Shed,
We are at the moment looking at second hand sheds but they are red hot around here now with regards to the shed being the proper rating for this area. I have no idea how to tell if it is compatible with their whims. I will research what is required though as this is certainly a cheaper way to go.

Hi Simon,
I already have a small slab to get me started, it just may need footings for the uprights which is easy peasy then extend as I can afford it. I haven't even looked into the cost of concrete, laid, yet. It is something I should consider because, a concreter I aint.

Bushmiller and PDW,
I could only dream about having a shed like yours Peter. That one ticks all the boxes and a few boxes that haven't been invented yet but alas....
If I was to go the container path, (which I still may) I would have to go the hi-cube but as usual the price jumps a bit when you go off the standard.
I agree bushmiller about a proper base for the containers and by the time I kit it out I can see it being more and more costly. I don't have a vermin problem here as the kids have all grown up and left home or were you talking about a different kind of vermin . All jokes aside you raised a good point about the doors. I had to fit out a container for a customer once that needed a fuel filling station for the bushfire season and the worst part of the job was opening the doors every morning to start work. I ended up fixing that problem before I finished the job.

I am going to investigate how much it will cost to get the comps done (well the comps have been done they kinda just need to be re-signed off again) on the drawings from the bloke at work that teaches metal fab and build the damn thing myself. At least I know it will be right and it is something I have done many times for other people yet never for myself. I can also integrate that travelling gantry as well that I find myself looking for more and more each day.
Many thanks for the informative replies guys.
I'll keep you posted.

Phil

Originally Posted by Steamwhisperer

One of the blokes at work teaches metal fab at the university here and has designs for a roof truss that minimises the waste from 8 metre lengths of steel.

Phil

Phil if you decide to build the shed yourself then maybe you should think about a clear span roof ?
It is much easier to make than trusses plus you have a lot more space overhead, it certainly would be worthwhile to cost up the price difference between the rhs for the clear span and the angle for the trusses. It is also hard to weld up trusses and not end up with bananas, and then have to push them straight and brace them into place.
In my shed I needed a lifting point so I made a semi truss (if you could call it that) by welding in a bottom cord about half way up into the pitch of my clear span roof and welding a shs prop between the bottom cord and the centre pitch connection. I have a chain block under that, I load tested it by accidentally (thoughtlessly and away with the fairies) lowering a Mitsubishi magna down with the jack before I had unhooked the chain block from the engine, there was a bit of creaking and groaning and a mad rush to get the jack back under the car but the roof line remained the same as before.

shed

Phil how about one of these

I'm paying the penalty for relying on my memory and hastily bashing off a post as I was heading into work. PDW is correct with his dimensions at 9' 6'' for the high cube and very subtly put. I stand chastened.

Phil this in fact brings me straight into asking exactly what you intend to do in your shed.

Are you making intricate boxes (ie: small stuff) or tables fit for a banqueting hall (big stuff)?

Further questions to be asked are:

How much room is there on your block? (Including access for a tilt tray)
Will shipping containers become an eyesore for your neighbours?
What requirements do the council have for their installation? Slabs have already been mentioned, but some councils also require a roof over the top to disguise their origins? This in turn may require an engineers certificate.
How much light do you need to work in (ideally that is)?
How much is heat and cold an issue in the summer and winter respectively?
Finally, what is the budget?

You also have a choice of container sizes. Realistically this is either 20' or 40'. The larger container is only half as much cost again so space for your buck is a much better buy, but delivery is more problematical (requires a semi trailer with specialised lifting gear or a large crane or large forklift, which are all extra expenses.) Of course you have to have the space on your block too. I should have gone with a 40' (I do have the space), but SWMBO said we didn't want the back yard to look like a dockyard .

I have two containers I placed, on slabs, six meters apart with the intention of joining them with trusses and a roof over the top. This is how they are set up:

containers 002.jpgcontainers 001.jpg

I was made aware that this was not going to be big enough (ironically by SWMBO) so the plan now is to go three meters out front and three meters out the back as well. Total shed area will be 12m x 10.8m.

The container on the left is used for storing tools, materials and timber. The container on the right is is just for general storage. The blue container you can just see in the picture is my son's and he used it for making his didgeridoos and was set up for long drilling of timber. One day I suppose he will take it away.

As you can tell I don't work in my container. Down in NSW I had a similar set up and worked in one container, although the two containers were eight meters apart, but I found a container to be very dark inside. I always had to have both doors wide open. My son found the same problem when he was working inside his container, but partially solved the problem by spray painting the inside white. It made a huge difference.

Other solutions would be skylights and windows.

Containers get hot in summer, but that is why mine are painted cream. My containers on a hot summers are still hot, but tolerable and about 10 degs cooler than my son's blue container. Also as I mentioned, I don't work inside them. I frequently go inside them for my tools and materials.

If you are chasing a light working environment, there is absolutely no substitute for good natural light. This is how SWMBO's studio is coming up:

containers 005.jpgcontainers 003.jpgcontainers 004.jpg

As you can see there are lots of openings. This costs and takes time. Ultimately a roof will go on top for added insulation, water catchment and aesthetics. It faces North so when the roof with suitable eaves are added it will be solar efficient.

Just returning to the cost of shipping containers, you can buy them very cheaply, but it is a big mistake if they are not weather and vermin proof (that's the four legged ones, not the two legged rascals). The seals on the doors are important and should be in good order. My impression is that Ballarat is about an hour from Melbourne so you should have access to a good supply of used boxes. In round figures I would expect about $2000 for the box and $150 to $200 for delivery by tilt tray for a 20" container.

Realistically, you will have to put in a concrete floor whatever you do although you could utilise mini pads as I have done with the studio. I think you can just see them in the pic of the outside. That would save quite a bit and you can conceivably mix up your own concrete for something that small (I did).

Sorry I've rambled on a bit. Possibly I have missed the main point of a shipping container and that is it is instant. You just have to fit it out and modify it to suit your needs. It is also fairly secure against break-ins, theft etc.

We all aspire to a large shed, but I am often reminded that one of the Forums most talented woodworkers worked from a small lawn locker. When it rained he couldn't work as all his actual woodworking was done out in the open!

Regards
Paul

I agree with all of the above post. Friend of mine has done the 2 containers with roof thing, it works but still... Containers IME make great instant storage spaces, nice and secure, but only barely adequate workshops etc. We were constrained to the footprint because we'd load them on & off ships and they had to fit the twistlock layout. We designed some where you could put 2 together on their long side with a flexible joiner to keep wind, snow and rain out. This was better but still not great. The other big downside for us 'heavy' (by home shop standards) metalwork types is, unless you own a forklift, good luck loading and unloading heavy tools in & out. The container is raised up off its substrate (slab whatever) so you can't roll stuff in & out unless you build up an apron to match the floor height and unload machinery direct onto this. It's all do-able and if I was heavily constrained by time or need to relocate stuff or needing the better security from theft, I'd go this way. But the cost of 2 containers plus the ancillary stuff is going to be in the $5K range, and for that price I'd be paying for a decent slab to be laid & building a shed on top of it. PDW

If you are into woodworking as well, you may consider two sheds rather than one (wish I had thought of that before building my one shed): nothing worse than sawdust all over you metalworking machinery. No, wait there is: metal all over you woodworking machinery - great for that 'distressed' look.