Thread: Slideway and machine oils

Originally Posted by Greg Q

Originally I was a purist about oils, but then realised that even the oil companies don't seem to give a #### about changed specifications and trade names. tribologists with useful experience

Names have changed. In my 1959 copy of the 13's Service Instructions there is a lubrication table. For the spindle, gearbox, slide screws and all other oiling points, the use of Vacuum Oil Company's Gargoyle VACTRA Heavy Medium was recommended. Vacuum Oil was renamed MOBIL in the early'60s. The Shell alternative was Vitrea Oil 33. By the late sixties, the heavier revamped version of the 13 was available and the oil recommended was Mobil DTE Light. Shell's equivalent was Tellus Oil 27.

I purchased 20 litres of Mobil DTE Heavy Medium because the Shell Vitrea 33 was the equivalent of an ISO68 circulating oil. A search at the time for Gargoyle Vactra Heavy Medium proved fruitless. The later mills used a thinner oil and they used that oil for way lubrication. Makes me wonder about the importance of tackifiers in way oil when Schaublin weren't concerned by their absence. I also wonder if these newer oils bear any semblance to their predecessors.

BT

Bruce I use chain bar oil on the gears and it works a treat, you can actually see it stringing off the gears.

The felt wipers "should" in theory both wipe the ways clean and provide a film of oil for the saddle to ride on. Greg is right, the ideal is to have an oil port on the saddle, and some people add one to assist. However I personally just wipe the ways clean and run some oil on the ways periodically before moving the saddle, and I feel that's fine. Apart from the points Bruce made, I think one reason the wear occurs is because people typically never replace the way wipers and crud just goes straight past them. I also use Greg's technique of lifting the tailstock nose as I move it. The TS is even more critical as it often has no wipers so anything on the ways will just be munched up as the tailstock passes over it.

I've heard there's a surprising difference in a manual machine when going to specific way oil, with noticeably smoother travel. However I have yet to try it, but thought the price if admission was worth giving it a go. I definitely agree that some people get too carried away with oils, and as long as it's good quality and plenty of it, no two headed babies are in danger of being born as a result of using the "wrong" oil.

Pete

I once spoke with a man who has a machine shop and he said he uses the proper way oil for the reason that the "real" way oil is less likely to be washed off the ways by coolant.He was saying that the way oil will not float on water like the mineral oils do.Further to this he said that it is the presence of the mineral oil in coolant, that is the prime cause of the bacterial action and degradation of the coolant.

This was well before I took it in to my head to to fit a coolant system to my lathe. I have checked out the availability of this way oil and it comes in 200 litre containers. Alzheimers is setting in ,I fear,as I can't remember the name of the stuff.

My 1 litre chain bar oil lasts me a year .Its the price of the coolant thats expensive $14 litre - Castrol clear edge EP690 - I want it to last more than a few weeks, before it needs changing.

My machine shop owner ,alas,was not local so I may have to ring up some shops and ask will the sell me some as they buy it in 200l drums.
Thats my 2C worth

Grahame

Originally Posted by Anorak Bob

Makes me wonder about the importance of tackifiers in way oil when Schaublin weren't concerned by their absence. I also wonder if these newer oils bear any semblance to their predecessors.

BT

The Vernier is the same. Y is lubed with overflow from the X reversing gear, i think when you use rapid it displaces enough oil to cause it to spill over 4 little weirs and down to the y way "well" (the round t slot for the swivel clamp bolts).
The X and Z have there own wells, one on each end, and the recommended oil is the same as everywhere else, BP HP 10C. As far as i can find basically ISO34 hydraulic oil.

I have Tarted up a X/Y table off a HM35 for future use with a gearheaded drill, after cleaning i assembled it with airtool
oil everything worked smoothly then i found 1/2 a drum of Tellus 68 in the oil cupboard and gave it a good drink thru the oilers. The table has sat for 3 mths now and the handwheels have become noticably stiffer, so much that i think i should dilute the Tellus once i find the Rega that has decided to play hide&seek in the shed.
Maybe 68 is to coarse for way oil.
Cheers

Way oil is designed for industrial tool machines with heavy surface pressures. And those have real good, well made and expensive way wipers. Wipers that not only wipe coolant and dust off, these wipe the ways dry if you did not use way oil. But hobby lathes have either no wipers, cheap plastic wipers that do not even fit properly, or the better hobbymachines use felt wipers. With felt wipers you want to use an oil that is not too heavy, one that easily percolates through the felt from top to wash dust and chips off. I also remove the felts regularly to wash in shellite or the like and squeeze them between a cotton rag in the vise to remove all metal dust. Way oils does in my opinion just not work well with felt wipers.

But if the OP insists, chain bar oil is the closest there is to good old way oil. It has the thickener to be tacky, it has thee rust inhibitors, but may lack the high pressure additives and the bactericides. Just buy a good brand chain bar oil, not cheapest stuff possibly recicled from old engine oil. Chris

If you haven't used the machine for quite some time I think it is more a case of the volatile components of the oil evaporating off rather than what you used on there initially. I hadn't used one of my lathes for a while and last night moved things around, the oil I'd put on there was basically gone and of course the operation stiff until I relubed everything.

Grahame, yes that's definitely one of the properties of way oil. The other is the reduction of stick-slip I alluded to above. I have no idea of what additive is used to reduce that effect. The basic premise is clear enough in the title, but is explained more clearly here Stick-slip phenomenon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia As mentioned, I've heard from guys who have poo-pooed special way oil, then switched to give it a go and said they noticed a definite improvement.

I'm looking at the oiling chart of a new mill I've (hopefully) bought, and note it specifies Mobil Vactra #2 for everything except the spindle bearing which are greased. But what would the Swiss know about making precision components.

Pete

Edit: Incidentally, the local machine shop uses engine oil for everything. The owner looked at me as if I had two heads when I asked him what oil he used in his machines (I was hoping it was some magic elixir I could offer to buy a small amount off of him). I didn't get the impression this was a "measure once, cut, weld, repeat" bodge-shop either. So the bottom line is probably "who cares" as long as it's lubed. But I do believe some oils will be better suited to the specific tasks to which they're formulated. I've met guys who have worked in the oil (lubricant) industry and the oil companies spend a bucket load on devising these specific formulae, so I don't suppose they do it because they have nothing better to do with their time.

I have a mini lathe and a number of vises. (cheeeeper things wear kwiker)

After reading this thread I am totally confused about all the oils.

Is there any problem with just using differential oil (hypoid) ?


Greg

RS Components sells a 5 litre drum of Castrol Magna BD68,51 for slideway lubrication around the $60:00 mark

Regards

Garry

For what it's worth I use Castrol Magnaglide in my machines and have done since new 15 years ago.
Never had a problem. But then again I use them all day everyday.
The coolant mix can sometimes cause grief.

Andrew

Just a bit off the track but what are people using for coolant on Lathes, Mills and Surface grinders as this can have an effect on the lubrication as well?

Garry

Greg, some oil is better than none.

For machines we try to steer clear of engine oil as they can have various additives in it that may not do a machine tool much good (such as detergents and viscosity modifiers). Machine tools do not get up to engine temperatures so some of these things that need heat to make them work never get to do that.

A straight single grade oil is alright, which yours probably is. The oils being talked about as slide way oils have 'tacifiers' added to make them stickier (or more tacky). This used to be a chlorinated hydrocarbon but I don't know what is used now. The reasoning being that they will stick to the surfaces that need to be lubricated better, so lower friction and better corrosion protection. However, as has been stated they also can hold pieces of grit and fine swarf in suspension so may act as an abrasive slurry. With the advent of newer and faster (CNC) machine tools the oils are changing so that the oils recommended in the '60's say may not exist anymore or if they do be in name only. This is an issue for those of us with older machines as we would like to use oil with the right characteristics so that they last and perform as well as they are able to.

Makes me wonder whether there is a niche market out there for someone who can re-create the oils of 50 years ago for all of us old machine buffs.

Michael

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

Way oil is designed for industrial tool machines with heavy surface pressures. And those have real good, well made and expensive way wipers. Wipers that not only wipe coolant and dust off, these wipe the ways dry if you did not use way oil. But hobby lathes have either no wipers, cheap plastic wipers that do not even fit properly, or the better hobbymachines use felt wipers. With felt wipers you want to use an oil that is not too heavy, one that easily percolates through the felt from top to wash dust and chips off. I also remove the felts regularly to wash in shellite or the like and squeeze them between a cotton rag in the vise to remove all metal dust. Way oils does in my opinion just not work well with felt wipers.

But if the OP insists, chain bar oil is the closest there is to good old way oil. It has the thickener to be tacky, it has thee rust inhibitors, but may lack the high pressure additives and the bactericides. Just buy a good brand chain bar oil, not cheapest stuff possibly recicled from old engine oil. Chris

Chris
Thanks for the hint on the felt wiper maintenance.
I just followed your instructions on the use of Shellite, & cleaned up the 4 felt wipers on my Hercus 260 lathe.
There was a lot of crud that had collected over the last 23 yrs in the wipers.
Also followed your method of squeezing the felts in a cloth in the vise.
All went well.
Thanks again for the advice.
regards
Bruce
ps I will do this little job a bit more frequently, in future.

Bruce.

What thickness do you think your original felt would have been? I can lay my hands on some new stuff at the moment. In several sizes.

Phil.