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  1. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayG View Post
    Then, you have the case where you have a universal head, thats two more axes of rotation...

    So on the FP2LB ( if we ever get around to getting the universal head repaired ) and on Ewans Vernier, it's now becoming obvious why it's easier to remove the vertical head..

    But you have to start over and tram the 2 axes of the universal head...

    Ray

    PS I must organize for Josh to make a tramming ring...

    I have considered exactly this several times now. Makes my head hurt every time.

    For those not familiar with the FP2LB there is a tilting, swivelling, rotating table (i.e. 3 axis of motion) and a head with two axis of rotation, so, 5 ways to become confused, disorientated and otherwise delusional.

    Fortunately most universal mills have a horizontal spindle which is pretty square to the dovetails/ways. The conclusion I have come to is that for accurate tramming you have to get something square to that horizontal axis, first. This I think is likely to be the table. Attempting to get a 2 axis head square to the horizontal spindle?? well beyond me, but hey I'm a noob here. Once the table is squared you can get the head squared. I think I'd choose the rotation and swivel first followed by the tilt.

    If you have set the machine up for that one job (yea, that one, the one you bought the tilting, swivelling rotating table and the 2 axis universal head for, and you have used all of those motions), well it ain't going to be a 30 second job to tram everything back in. If you have to keep the setup on the table while you do this, well, just another little challenge. Might even be beer o'clock by the time you get done. In order to speed the process up I wonder if using a good level to get you in the ball park might help??

    Some people might wonder why you would need 5 axis of adjustment. Some people consider having 5 axis of motion an indication of insanity and some us know it's actually much worse than that.

    I reserve the right to be completely wrong about any of the above and I think I need a rotary table??

    Cheers

    The Beryl Bloke
    Equipment er.... Projects I own

    Lathes - Sherline 4410 CNC
    Mills - Deckel FP2LB, Hardinge TM-UM, Sherline 2000 CNC.

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  3. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
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    Ballarat
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    Hi Michael,
    how did it go, did you managed to get the table back to square or were you just looking for methods.

    Phil

  4. #18
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    Sep 2011
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    65
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBs PensNmore View Post
    Hi Michael, don't know if this will help, but I've seen an item that has 2 dial indicators on it approx 150mm apart with a bar that fits in a collet on the mill. The head/table is trammed until the gauges read zero. I know a lot of you members like to make interesting tools and found this website to make one yourself: http://www.homemadetools.net/forum/m...-6451#post7733


    Kryn
    Hi Kryn,
    that rig is for tramming the vertical head.
    Michael was after ways of resetting the table in the horizontal plane as on a universal mill, the table pivots.

    Phil

  5. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Adelaide
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    59
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    3,149

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamwhisperer View Post
    ...did you managed to get the table back to square or were you just looking for methods?
    Currently I'm just lining the table up using the graduations around the table. I think (having measured when kicked around at other angles) that it is very close and if I check a cut I make with a square it confirms that.

    I really wanted to see whether anyone had a technique that was fast, simple and accurate. The gadget that Kryn posted as noted is for a vertical axis. While it could be used for squaring the table it would require breaking down any set up as well as some tooling to indicate on so is not ideal. I've also wondered how the two DIs are synchronised on them as that seems to be the key to the advantage that the jig has over other methods. I find I get good and quick results with a back indicating DI (Starrett 196) but in this situation the back indication would make things more awkward.

    Peter* has mentioned a straight forward way to do it but typically I'd be chasing fractions of a degree to improve on what I currently do so repeatable and accurate mounting of the parallel against the column becomes critical. Not sure how to do that at the moment without the possibility of introducing other errors. It also relies on the spindle being spot on square to the column too - I'd need to check that assumption out as well.

    Mounting a DI in the spindle and indicating off a parallel mounted on the table will not necessarily show anything as the table will (should be) always be the same relative distance away from the table regardless of the table angle

    *And Phil - see my post below.

    Michael

  6. #20
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    Sep 2011
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    Hi Michael,
    Have a look at post #6.
    Just mount the DI on the table and reach the pointer over to the dovetails of the column (the flat sections facing the table). Winding the table back and forwards will indicate any error.
    If you put the indicator which can be mounted on a magnetic base roughly in the middle of the table, adjustments to the table should be pretty straight forward.
    Setting up the trimming rig is easy. With the indicators mounted on the rig, and the pointers hanging out, place the rig on your surface plate and compress the pointers, set the dials to zero by turning the face rotating thingy, I forget what it is called, bezel maybe, and you are good to go.
    The DI's don't have to be in the same amount, they just have to both read zero when compressed.
    Hope this helps.

    Phil

  7. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Australia east coast
    Age
    71
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    1,469

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theberylbloke View Post
    I have considered exactly this several times now. Makes my head hurt every time.

    For those not familiar with the FP2LB there is a tilting, swivelling, rotating table (i.e. 3 axis of motion) and a head with two axis of rotation, so, 5 ways to become confused, disorientated and otherwise delusional.

    Fortunately most universal mills have a horizontal spindle which is pretty square to the dovetails/ways. The conclusion I have come to is that for accurate tramming you have to get something square to that horizontal axis, first. This I think is likely to be the table. Attempting to get a 2 axis head square to the horizontal spindle?? well beyond me, but hey I'm a noob here. Once the table is squared you can get the head squared. I think I'd choose the rotation and swivel first followed by the tilt.

    If you have set the machine up for that one job (yea, that one, the one you bought the tilting, swivelling rotating table and the 2 axis universal head for, and you have used all of those motions), well it ain't going to be a 30 second job to tram everything back in. If you have to keep the setup on the table while you do this, well, just another little challenge. Might even be beer o'clock by the time you get done. In order to speed the process up I wonder if using a good level to get you in the ball park might help??

    Some people might wonder why you would need 5 axis of adjustment. Some people consider having 5 axis of motion an indication of insanity and some us know it's actually much worse than that.

    I reserve the right to be completely wrong about any of the above and I think I need a rotary table??

    Cheers

    The Beryl Bloke
    Har har. That's why I pulled the 3 axis table off my baby mill when I needed to mill some porthole castings. My head was hurting. Besides a RT with mounted chuck chews up Z space really, really fast.

    PDW
    Attached Images Attached Images

  8. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Melbourne
    Age
    54
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    380

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    My Thiel has a universal table similar to that on Bob's Schaublin which has tapered aligning holes that set the table to a zero position when a corresponding tapered pin is knocked into them. There is a similar hole in the vertical head which sets it to be trammed in the vertical position and I think also at 90⁰. The table pin is just a simple tapered rod however I suspect the pin for the vertical head would have incorporated some sort of jacking mechanism as there is no access to knock it back out again (a project for a quiet afternoon one day).

    I was initially dubious as to how well this system would work but having used them a few times and checked the alignment afterwards they get everything back pretty much dead nuts.

    I was just wondering if a similar system might be present on the rotational axis of Michaels universal mill, it might be worth having a look for any unexplained holes in the bottom of the centre t-slot?
    Cheers,
    Greg.

  9. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    ex Perth, now Mittagong
    Posts
    41

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    Like Greg's Theil, the Stanko toolroom mill I left behind in Perth had tapered pins for bringing things back into alignment. It might be worthwhile doing something similar when you manage to get the universal mill back into correct tram.

    The Stanko tapered pins had an extended thread on the fat end and when inserted to full depth the tapered portion ended up recessed so that when extraction was needed a nut tightened down pulled the pin out. Very simple but effective.

    Peter

  10. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Adelaide
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    59
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    3,149

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamwhisperer View Post
    Have a look at post #6.
    Sorry. Missed that post.

    Michael

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