Thread: Whisperings

Originally Posted by Steamwhisperer

Give me the 1800's anyday.
Phil

As long as you don't need medical or dental care, suuuuure.........

PDW

Originally Posted by Steamwhisperer

It seems the only free thinking is on forums like this one and blokes like you
Give me the 1800's anyday.

Phil

Hah ha. What I laughingly call "my mind" is just a word-association engine. Random number theory in the flesh.

And 1800's? I'm ancient Phil, but not that ancient. (although I overheard my daughter describing me as being two days older than dirt). Rotten damned kids.

Curmudgeon.

Hi Guys,
The single cone pumps I get, my father has one that was (I think) used as a sump pump in buildings with basements that didn't leak much and an electric pump was over the top. Its the double cone ones, at first look to me its seems a little like reaching down, grabbing your bootlaces, pulling real hard and lifting yourself off the ground. After all there is no pressure difference between the steam you are using to drive it and the pressure of the boiler. There has to be some energy used some where, I assume there is some warned water coming out the injectors exhaust(?) .. that's where I start scratching my head, it looks better than perpetual motion! lol


Hi Greg,
Are you pumping from a main tank to a header tank or using some sort of swirl pot? I'd assume you get a lot of "air" (well not air anymore, inert gas(?))

Stuart

Originally Posted by Stustoys

Hi Guys,
The single cone pumps I get, my father has one that was (I think) used as a sump pump in buildings with basements that didn't leak much and an electric pump was over the top. Its the double cone ones, at first look to me its seems a little like reaching down, grabbing your bootlaces, pulling real hard and lifting yourself off the ground. After all there is no pressure difference between the steam you are using to drive it and the pressure of the boiler. There has to be some energy used some where, I assume there is some warned water coming out the injectors exhaust(?) .. that's where I start scratching my head, it looks better than perpetual motion! lol


Hi Greg,
Are you pumping from a main tank to a header tank or using some sort of swirl pot? I'd assume you get a lot of "air" (well not air anymore, inert gas(?))

Stuart

All the tanks have a collector tank integral to them-in fact on my current plane you can read that qty as a subset of the main tank qty. All fuel going to engines (as opposed to trimming fuel) has to get there via those two collectors. The feed pump array lives there. Inert gasses now are the rule after TWA 800. If you get air into the ejector it ceases to work instantly.

The basic premise is that you get very high velocity fluid flow into the ejector (or injector). The end divergent nozzle causes a sudden velocity decrease, and hence a pressure spike which then does the work.

Greg

Originally Posted by RayG

Wagon wheel design and construction is not something I admit to having given a lot of thought to, but when you get to see first hand what goes into making a wheel, and some of the subtleties of the design, that you get to appreciate what a truly brilliant bit of engineering they are..

First, the only thing holding the wheel together is the steel tyre, which is shrunk on either with heat or with a hydraulic shrinking device.

Pause for a minute and imagine the stresses that these wheels have to endure bouncing at speed across rough rocky terrain. Some of the carriages on display had incredibly light spindly looking wheels.
....................................................

RAY,

When I was looking for information on Blanchard lathes prior to building my own spoke lathe I came across an article on military wheelmaking in the 1850s. Somewhere in the article the author mentioned that the Royal Artillery expected to get 30000 miles from the wood-spoked wheels used on their artillery pieces.

By the 1850s the hubs on military wheels would probably have evolved into something more akin to the wheels used on cars up to about the end of the twenties, but otherwise the general design features were the same. I suppose that to get 30000 miles from a wheel several re-tyrings of the wheel during its lifetime would have been needed though. Considering the types of surfaces these would have operated on, it says a lot for durability of the wheels.

By the way, I presume the spokes you saw were made on a Blanchard lathe? Did anyone happen to get a photo of it which they could post?

Regards,

Frank.

Originally Posted by franco

RAY,

... Royal Artillery expected to get 30000 miles from the wood-spoked wheels used on their artillery pieces..

Frank.

150 years later my wife's car suffered the premature failure of two wheels after a pothole incident. less than 15,000 miles. Which goes to prove that a century and a half of development can be undone in an instant by the lowest bidder

Originally Posted by Stustoys

Hi Guys,
The single cone pumps I get, my father has one that was (I think) used as a sump pump in buildings with basements that didn't leak much and an electric pump was over the top. Its the double cone ones, at first look to me its seems a little like reaching down, grabbing your bootlaces, pulling real hard and lifting yourself off the ground. After all there is no pressure difference between the steam you are using to drive it and the pressure of the boiler. There has to be some energy used some where, I assume there is some warned water coming out the injectors exhaust(?) .. that's where I start scratching my head, it looks better than perpetual motion! lol

Hi Stuart,
I am not surprised that my explanation looks like it is something written from a paralell world.
Try this link and download the PDF only.
It should explain everything

Phil
Practice and theory of the injector : Kneass, Strickland Landis, 1861- : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

Originally Posted by franco

By the way, I presume the spokes you saw were made on a Blanchard lathe? Did anyone happen to get a photo of it which they could post?

Regards,

Frank.

Hi frank
If there are no pics I will take some and if possible get the make. We re-tyre our wheels a fair bit but the wheelwrights have just restored a cannon set from the Crimean war and it took longer work out how to pull them apart than fix. Lots of inaccessible copper rivets. They were made cannonball proof and from all accounts they were.

Phil

Originally Posted by franco

By the way, I presume the spokes you saw were made on a Blanchard lathe? Did anyone happen to get a photo of it which they could post?

Regards,

Frank.

Hi Frank,

I'm pretty sure it was a Blanchard Lathe, but I don't think I have a picture, there were three machines on that side of the wheelwright's shop, one was the lathe for turning the elliptical spoke profile, one was a tennoning machine, and a third to neck down the spoke close to the hub to make it flex more. There was some discussion on the suitable timbers for spokes, which I promptly forgot, I think spotted gum was good for hubs?

I'm sure someone has pictures...

Regards
Ray

Hi GQ, I think wooden spoked wheels would be a good look on a modern car, at least better than some of the crazy sci-fi looking mag wheels getting around ...

Originally Posted by Stustoys

Hi Guys,
The single cone pumps I get, my father has one that was (I think) used as a sump pump in buildings with basements that didn't leak much and an electric pump was over the top. Its the double cone ones, at first look to me its seems a little like reaching down, grabbing your bootlaces, pulling real hard and lifting yourself off the ground. After all there is no pressure difference between the steam you are using to drive it and the pressure of the boiler. There has to be some energy used some where, I assume there is some warned water coming out the injectors exhaust(?) .. that's where I start scratching my head, it looks better than perpetual motion! lol

Stuart,

Here's another simple (?) explanation of how a locomotive type injector works.

Traction engines and narrow gauge steam locomotives often used steam ejector pumps like the ones you mention to refill their water tanks from roadside or trackside streams.

Regards,

Frank.

Originally Posted by Greg Q

150 years later my wife's car suffered the premature failure of two wheels after a pothole incident. less than 15,000 miles. Which goes to prove that a century and a half of development can be undone in an instant by the lowest bidder

Ain't progress wonderful?

Originally Posted by Steamwhisperer

Hi frank
If there are no pics I will take some and if possible get the make. We re-tyre our wheels a fair bit but the wheelwrights have just restored a cannon set from the Crimean war and it took longer work out how to pull them apart than fix. Lots of inaccessible copper rivets. They were made cannonball proof and from all accounts they were.

Phil

Phil,

Many thanks for the offer.

As a matter of interest, my Great Grandfather was a Gunner/Driver in the Royal Artillery during the Crimean War before emigrating to Australia, so he would probably have been only too familiar with the artillery piece you mention.

Regards,

Frank.

I was at Sovereign Hill a few months ago and in the wheel making shop they had a sectioned wagon wheel hub showing that it had tapered roller bearings. I would be interested to know when these bearings became common as this use seems to be (to me anyway) a contradiction of technologies.
Mm. (another Phillip)

Hi Metalman,

Yes we spotted that same display and asked the same questions, it turns out that tapered roller bearings were patented by Timken in 1898, I imagine they were a big improvement for wagon wheel bearings.. Not sure how wide spread the adoption was, but big advances like that are often taken up within a few years by the market.

Regards
Ray

PS I found a picture.. of what we are talking about... PPS Timken was a carriage maker in St Louis, so the first application of his patent was for carriage wheels.