Thread: Asbestos removal - advice needed - might be urgent

So he's back here now - very unhapppy that he has been recalled. "It's a $3000 vac". He also said that the only thing that happens when they are tagged is that an electrician does that type of tagging - nothing about the filters being tested or the vac being checked for leaks.

He is trying to tell me that the level of dust settling is normal for a 100 year old house - and that in an hour there'll be more dust. I have no doubt that there'll be more dust, but it doesn't settle this quickly in one hour (which is what this is from):
Dust.jpg

He says it is not asbestos dust. I dispute that - not only is it grey, it appeared "out of nowhere" compared to the normal amount of dust that settles in this house. There are two levels of dust on top of the microwave in that pic. A chopping board sits in the middle of it - it's a board that I almost never use, and underneath it was dustless when I removed it last night. There is a thicker layer of dust around the edges because they are always exposed. The dust in the middle is the same colour as the dust on the benches (fingertips wiped across and inspected).

Did he cut the sheet? as Asbestos sheeting should "NOT" be cut/broken/smashed. They should be removed as whole pieces as best as they could.

So technically there shouldn't be any dust generated during the removal.

In terms of his vacuum cleaner, sadly he's right no tagging associated with filter cleanliness, there are guidelines around frequency of testing, and signs of damage, documentation etc but that'll be of little consolidation to you right now. WIthout having the dust examined it'll be hard to say if it's asbestos, could be anything from carpet fibers, to insulation etc.

Also just to let you know getting the credentials to remove asbestos is a few hour long online course, nothing a joe blog off the street can't attain.

Well - that's vacs for ya!

I'd say its probably dust from his previous jobs that have leaked out of his vac!

STEP 1: P2 masks are not good enough - you will need a P3 if you can get it.
While you are at it get some disposable overalls and gloves

Don't use ANY kind of a vac on it - you will contaminate the vac and probably the whole house and then cannot use the vac for anything else.
You will have better chance of picking up more surface dust by letting it settle over night and then repeated wiping of all surfaces with a wet rag and throw the rags away.
Let the surfaces dry between wipes.

Can you leave the windows open and set up a bit of a draft - a couple of hours of that will get rid of it.

He's probably spread right through the house.

Crap!

Originally Posted by tonzeyd

Did he cut the sheet?

Yes. It all had to fit into plastic bags in pieces about 500x400mm.

It has to be left under the cupboards (otherwise a MAJOR renovation) so he had to go around the edges. I didn't observe it but I heard hammering for an hour or so. He had a jimmy bar that he was using as a chisel to cut the sheet off:
Floor.jpg

Then he put straight PVA undiluted on the edges to seal it. (happy with that)

To be clear, I'm suggesting at all that he was a cowboy (unlike the knuckle draggers that turned up 3 weeks ago and were dismissed before they even started - one ESL and one no English at all - excellent for communication on such an important matter). This guy was thorough etc and I had confidence...until I felt the benchtops. I assured him I was not criticising him or his work, but that there must be a problem with his vac. He just won't accept that because it was $3000. I have no doubt that even a Rolls Royce car has warranty issues from time to time.

I was unable to ascertain the age or brand of the vac, but I am quite certain that it was the problem. Just for a start the dust layer seemed to be nice and uniform.

Originally Posted by BobL

STEP 1: P2 masks are not good enough - you will need a P3 if you can get it.

No chance up here.

Originally Posted by BobL

Don't use ANY kind of a vac on it - you will contaminate the vac and probably the whole house and then cannot use the vac for anything else.
You will have better chance of picking up more surface dust by letting it settle over night and then repeated wiping of all surfaces with a wet rag and throw the rags away.
Let the surfaces dry between wipes.

He came back and wiped everything in the room, including light fittings that I drew his attention to. He certainly used the right technique - one quite short wipe for each Handee wipe (wet) and then into his disposal bag, so he went through heaps of them. Like I say, he knows his job, but not about vacs - which should be part of his training. When I asked him is it L, M or H class he said it was H "coz it's a Hepa filter". WRONG answer! "H" is for Hazardous.

Originally Posted by BobL

Can you leave the windows open and set up a bit of a draft - a couple of hours of that will get rid of it.

Back door and kitchen window have been open ever since (2 hours). Have also opened the front door for a bit of extra push (long narrow house with doors at each end).

Originally Posted by tonzeyd

WIthout having the dust examined it'll be hard to say if it's asbestos, could be anything from carpet fibers, to insulation etc.

Nah. Hardly any carpet - two rooms away there are a couple of runners which are red. Insulation batts are yellow. The dust was grey.

But really the point is the amount of dust you can see in the pic in post 2 accumulated since this morning - he was here for 3 hours the first time. If that is the normal amount of dust falling in this house then I am dead years ago! His claim that it is normal house dust is pure BS to cover his butt.

So Bob I think you are saying that it is most likely to be ground up dust from his vac?

I did work in that area years ago and what this guy did is clearly wrong. Asbestos as such is not poisonous, it is the fine dust that enters your lungs and that is so fine that your lungs cannot transport it back. So for asbestos removal, number one rule is: don't do anything that builds up fine dust, i.e. never cut it (especially with high rev machinery) and don't use anything that blows dust around (like the vacuum cleaner).
The correct way is to wet the area or better coat the material with a binding coating and then remove it using a bag that's large enough. It is OK to break the material if it doesn't fit in the largest bag, because that may produce coarse crumbs but not the fine and dangerous dust. The bags need to be approved asbestos bags and properly sealed when full.


The problem you face is really bad. I guess the best way is to clean everything out with wet rags multiple times. Don't reuse them, use new ones each time. I wouldn't tell the government, they may close of the building. Australia is a bit exaggerating in this regard.


It is beyond believe with how little knowledge some people do their jobs!

Thanks Andy. I did try to explain the concept of invisible dust to this guy, and how the danger is a double whammy - "Nothing to see here - time to take the mask off". Nothing to see because it's invisible. So then you take a nice big lungful of dust that bores right into your lungs because it's so fine.

Apart from the vac everything he did was right. Short use of the wipes, nice thick micron disposal bags which he carefully taped up to seal off.

He had a royal dose of the sheets, and didn't appreciate it when I said I possibly knew more about invisible dust than his boss did (thanks to BobL's numerous posts ). He clearly didn't understand the concept of the vac grinding up the dust and spitting it back out - and it was patently obvious to me that this was the problem. Either that, or his filter was in dire need of replacement. There is no way that the dust came from normal house fallout, or even from him breaking up the sheet. It was too evenly spread - just like it been blown around the room by an exhaust of some kind.....

I'd bet London to a Brick that I was the first person he'd come across that knew anything at all about the subject. He wanted to trip me up - "Do you know how long the illness takes to develop?". "Yes, 20-30 years" I said. "And that", he said, "is working with it every day like I do". I didn't say that the recommended exposure level is zero - because they just don't know for certain, and may never know.

Interesting to note that he had his suit and mask back on when he returned (but off at the end of his first visit when he was cleaning up and spreading the glue around). No hat though.

Also interesting that in the 2½ hours since he left....there is negligible "old house dust" settling....

As far as i'm aware powered cutting tools are a big no no when it comes to removing asbestos.

You can definitely get bigger bags, you can also get rolls of plastic to essentially shrink wrap the whole lot, these are typically used for larger jobs like fencing material.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

So Bob I think you are saying that it is most likely to be ground up dust from his vac?

Yep,

No dust on the benches this morning, which is very good. That would seem to show that the ventilation got rid of anything left suspended, or that there was nothing left suspended two hours after he had finished with the vac. Of course that also confirms the "100 yo house dust is the problem" is pure butt covering tosh.

Given that he used no power tools (didn't hear anything except the hammering), that only leaves the vac as the culprit.

Originally Posted by AndyJ

I did work in that area years ago and what this guy did is clearly wrong. Asbestos as such is not poisonous, it is the fine dust that enters your lungs and that is so fine that your lungs cannot transport it back.

Here is a bit more detail.

It's not just the size of the dust size but also the density. A major difference between plant (eg wood, clothing), animal (eg skin cells, hair, faecal), combustion product, and most synthetic fibre dust, and rock type (eg silica and asbestos) fibres is the density of the fibres, with the rock type dust being between about 8 and 3 times denser.

The less dense fine dust doesn't so much rattle its way down into lungs like little bullets but behaves more like air molecules and rides the the air currents into the lungs and fortunately rides the air currents straight back out again. However, the denser dust is more likely to behave like little bullets and collide with the lung walls. The finer the dust the more likely it is to be dragged further into the lungs and less likely to be cleaned out.

Asbestos has a double whammy, not only is it a denser rock type dust but it's dust shaped like little needles so they have a greater chance of hitting and sticking this makes it near impossible for the lungs to clear this dust.

Interestingly, metal dust is between 20 and 8 times denser than the lighter dust but does usually not have as much of an effect as rock type dust. This is probably due to two effects. The much higher density of metal dust means it usually falls out of the air much faster than other dust, and being so dense it does not get as far into the lungs. That aside there are some metals (even low density ones like Beryllium) that are very toxic, especially if they are also radioactive. May years ago I was exposed to an incident that involved a shattering of the "beryllium window" of a geiger counter. I thought nothing of it until many years I was diagnosed with Sarcoidosis for which Beryllosis is a known cause. However Beryllosis almost always causes serious lung problems and my lung function is about average for my age so this was unlikely the cause of my Sarcoidosis. Another cause was possible exposure to nickel dust but that didn't check out either. There are many non-dust causes of Sarcoidosis which are much more likely.

From what I've read above, the "problem" was most likely an inefficient HEPA filter. "Inefficient" in this context covers all or some of the following
a filter at or beyond its use by date;
a poorly sealed filter;
a HEPA type filter that hasn't tested in accordance with the applicable Australian standard;
a HEPA filter that has been tested in accordance with the Aus standard, but is now "blocked" to operate as intended.


from this distance, my bet would be that your contractor used a HEPA type filter, rather than a HEPA tested one. The cost difference between the two being substantial.



BTW
Good to hear that the guy returned to rectify the problem.