Thread: Finger sensing table saw.

Originally Posted by TritonJapan

Bit like a seat belt though. Better to teach drivers how to drive without crashing in the first place.

And you've never been involved in a car accident?

I've never had an injury causing incident with a power tool. However, I have had a kickback on the tablesaw. The kids had fiddled with the fence alignment (I didn't notice) angling it inwards to the blade. The workpiece only winded me luckily. I once neglected to remove the chuck key from a drill press and wore that in the rib cage (it's now on a wire that is fixed to the drill press).

All that and I am bloody paranoid. Unfortunately the SawStop is not available here. If it does become available here, I guarantee I will be customer number one!

Originally Posted by markharrison

That view is not the perception I am getting from owners of a SawStop saw at WoodCentral. Still that is just a perception based on ownership. What is the basis you have for this rather sweeping statement?

Mark,
There are a few individuals that have purchased 'SawStop'. I don't often hang about WoodCentral. I have seen a few glowing reviews from recent purchasers of 'SawStop'. One glowing reviewer had not finished assembling the saw but found the time to write a review. I know of a lot more people that have purchased Bosch, Craftsman, Delta, General, Jet, Powermatic, etc. table saws, self included.

Reading between the lines of SawStop's advertising in the professional trade magazines, IMHO, the saw is not selling well. The SawStop advertising started with:

Greatest thing since sliced bread

Then for a month or two, Look who is buying our product. Followed by name and date of purchase in 'Star Wars' text style. The dates were about two months behind the publication date of the magazine. (I think the dates are normal considering lead times.)

Now, when SawStop does advertise, they allude to the Greatest thing since sliced bread but more trying to push an immage of quality.

I really don't think that the saw is selling that well, which in some ways is sad. The saw should be selling to commercial shops faster than the saw can be produced. In states like California, with FUBAR workmans compensation insurance requirements, the saw could pay for itself in 5 (or less) years of reduced WC insurance premiums.

SawStop is a limitted liability corportation (LLC) and their books are not in the public record. This makes it very difficult for a potential purchaser to determine the financial health of the corporation.

Finally the big 'Chicken or the egg' issue for SawStop is replacement parts. IMHO, SawStop will not survive in business unless the stopping cartrige is available from a second, third or even a seventeenth source. A purchaser needs confidence that the investment in a major tool is servicable for many years to come. It's like automobiles. Parts are still available for something as common as an Oldsmobile or obscure as a Fair Lady.

Another reason that SawStop has difficulty in selling is initial cost. I just purchased a Delta Unisaw which included router, belt sander, Biesemeyer fence, etc. for $1813US. The same purchase for just the saw, fence and three cartriges is about $3000US. (Three cartridges, replacement 10" saw, initial dado, replacement dado.) That is a huge difference for this woodworker and the SawStop price does not include delivery or California sales taxes.

I think that the following story illustrates what went wrong. In my pre-teen years, (More than 50 years ago) my younger brother was doing a 'magic trick' for an even younger neighbor. All the sleight of hand had been done and it was time for the magic words. My brother asked the neighbor to "Say the magic word." The neighbor replied, "Please, thank you." Well my friend, that is precisely what SawStop didn't do and I think that they are paying for it in a very big way.

I just received the latest issue of Fine Woodworking.

I noticed a 1/6 or 1/8 page advertisement for SawStop. Again pushing the quality theme. A quote from a user saying something like that the saw is better than a brick outhouse. The picture in the advertisement is of the blade height wheel and tilt angle. It seems that the blade tilt scale is marked with rather fine marks and at one degree intervals.

This is one of the few SawStop advertisements I've seen in non-professional magazines.

This whole thing brings up another thought about saw designs. Powermatic just did a significant redesign of their cabinet saw but did not include the SawStop mechanism. I have to wonder why.

Originally Posted by rrich

I just received the latest issue of Fine Woodworking.

I received mine two weeks ago here in Australia. You're sure on a slow mail service.

Originally Posted by rrich

I noticed a 1/6 or 1/8 page advertisement for SawStop. Again pushing the quality theme. A quote from a user saying something like that the saw is better than a brick outhouse. The picture in the advertisement is of the blade height wheel and tilt angle. It seems that the blade tilt scale is marked with rather fine marks and at one degree intervals.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything but do continue...

Originally Posted by rrich

This is one of the few SawStop advertisements I've seen in non-professional magazines.

It's not the first time that it has been advertised in FWW. What are the "professional" magazines you are referring to?

Originally Posted by rrich

This whole thing brings up another thought about saw designs.

Again, I'm not sure why. But there you are...

Originally Posted by rrich

Powermatic just did a significant redesign of their cabinet saw

As I understand it, the PM66 is staying in production. The PM66 is still in their catalogue. A fact you can check for yourself at their website. The new saw (PM2000 -- Just has to be better with 2000 in the name right? ) is just that, a new saw with a different "price point" (as they say in marketing).

Originally Posted by rrich

but did not include the SawStop mechanism. I have to wonder why.

Call me cynical, but I'm guessing money or NIH(*) syndrome. It's not because it doesn't work.

Leaving aside the issue that you previously asserted that they tried to get OSHA to mandate this device (maybe you're right but I don't really care), I truly don't understand what your beef is with these guys? As I said earlier, seat belts had to be made law to make it happen. I suspect that future generations will see this device (or something like it) as fundamental as seat belts are today as the primary passive motor vehicle safety device.

Go back and look at early woodworking machinery and compare to what even exists today (which let's face it hasn't changed much since the 1950's, particularly in the USA). I for one would not want to work in those early shops. For a well preserved example, have a look in the Boeing Red Barn in Seattle.

(*) NIH -- Not Invented Here.

Mark,
On the NIH thing. I really don't think so. I think that it is more to do with our F%$#@& up product liability laws. I have been told that if a new model is brought out with a significant safety improvement, a manufacturer can be sued for not providing retrofit kits for all of their older products. Remember we're the country that found an automobile manufacturer liable for damages when a drunk driver hit a car on the sholder of the interstate highway at 60+ MPH and severly burned the driver of the parked car.

If it isn't the liability issue, I think that the lack of a second (or more)source for the stopping cartrige is an issue. If a manufacturer puts the feature in one of their new saws. Today the cartrige is $70US but with a single source the cost could be $270US, tomorrow. Also a consistent supply of cartriges is an issue. If a manufacturer needs 1000 cartriges a month and the supply suddenly dwindles to 10 per month, the manufacturer must shut production down. If I were a manufacturer I would not want to be locked into a single source of raw materials.

SawStop is a great safety product but the way that the product is being marketed and sold is probably going to kill the product. That is really sad.

I don't know where you got the impression that the new Powermatic saw is just a model pricing scheme. This model has a very unique set of roll about casters built in. The new design also contains a true riving knife. That's a safety feature that is lacking in most other US table saws.

As for trying to get the feature mandated by the government, I have read the petition from SawStop to one of the federal agencies. (It could have been OSHA, FTC, CPSC or ???) What I came away with by reading the petition was that, IMHO, there was possibly fraudulent information in the petition. The petition included rather gruesome photos of "table saw" accidents, including a very bad amputation of 4 fingers. The only thing was that the amputation looked like it was the result of a clawing rather than a cut. If I were a gambler, I would bet that the photo was of a shaper accident and not a table saw accident. Was it a shaper accident? I can't really say. What I can say is that the photo does not look like a table saw accident to me.

You're correct, I do have a "beef" with the SawStop, which is that they don't make a right tilting model. When I bought my saw, the SawStop model was seriously considered but dropped from consideration due to the lack of a right tilting model. There it is, my "beef" exposed. And while you seem to think that I have a "beef", I've only stated facts as I know them. Anything that is an opinion, is labeled as such. (IMHO or I think) It is my preference to do business with honest and above board people. I do not like doing business with people that have hidden agendas and resort to back alley tactics. Even so, SawStop did warrant consideration for my purchase. The right tilting feature is an absolute requirement for my saw.

Well my friend, when you purchase your new SawStop be sure to purchase enough stopping cartriges for the future, because when you use the last one there may not be any additional cartriges available at any price.

Finally, my friend, you seem to have a rather strong dislike for many things American. While that's your perrogative, you do have my sympathy. I will not quibble with you over that.

Originally Posted by rrich

I do not like doing business with people that have hidden agendas and resort to back alley tactics.

To paraphrase the Bard, "All's fair in love and commerce". I wouldn't describe it what you have described as a "back-alley" technique any more than what I have witnessed first hand in business. FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) would be a fair description though and this is a standard technique at IBM (who practically invented it) and now Microsoft who have greatly expanded its application.

Originally Posted by rrich

I don't know where you got the impression that the new Powermatic saw is just a model pricing scheme. This model has a very unique set of roll about casters built in. The new design also contains a true riving knife. That's a safety feature that is lacking in most other US table saws.

Actually, I didn't say it was just a model pricing scheme but apart from the riving knife (scarcely an innovation by any objective definition but welcome nonetheless) there is nothing special about the saw, except the price. If you want innovation you need to look to Europe (Felder, MiniMax/SCM etc) or, well, SawStop. As for castors? All I can say is Three Cheers for the Wombats in the Simpson Desert!!!!! (translation: Whoopy-doo)

Originally Posted by rrich

The right tilting feature is an absolute requirement for my saw.

Why was left tilt a deal breaker?

Originally Posted by rrich

Finally, my friend, you seem to have a rather strong dislike for many things American. While that's your perrogative, you do have my sympathy. I will not quibble with you over that.

I've no idea where you got that idea from. I'm pretty even-handed when it comes to the USA. There are many things I admire about the USA but I'm not blind to its failings, as indeed I am not blind to our own failings. In my considerable direct experience with the USA (I've worked at American Express, IBM, Microsoft and Computer Associates over the past twenty years. I've been there more than a dozen times and spent over four months there in 2000 as well I have an Aunt and other family in San Francisco) the only colleagues that I had a problem with (and there were only a couple) were those with an inflated sense of self-importance "because, goddamnit, I'm an American and that's the best there is". Typically those folks have never travelled and I doubt would even know how to apply for a passport. If you're not one of those terminally insecure individuals then we don't have a problem.

Gents, it is normal in a peeing contest to aim downwind. It may be best to "shake" and move on, as this thread is not up to both of your usual fine standards. .

Mark,
May you have a happy and joyous summer solstice holiday of your choice.

Originally Posted by Groggy

Gents, it is normal in a peeing contest to aim downwind. It may be best to "shake" and move on, as this thread is not up to both of your usual fine standards. .

I'm done. When the only counter-argument one's interlocutor can resort to is the ad hominem (read the whole thread and draw your own conclusion...), the game is no longer worth the candle.