Thread: Wood the Silent killer

post hoc ergo propter hoc?

Originally Posted by Avery

post hoc ergo propter hoc?

I go along with that question.
How does a 'carcinogenic' cause an infection? Infections are casused by micro-organisms (bacteria, vruses, fungi).
Carcinogens cause cancer - and antibiotics don't treat cancer....
Are you worried about the 'big C'? If so, get it checked out propeerly and don' wait for antibiotics to work.
If you agree it is an infection, then try and figutr out how you got infected - I would be pretty sure it wasn't from wood dust. Maybe you have timber with mould or other fungus on it? Ask your doctor what the infectious organism is and where it may have come from!

Protecting youself from ANY dust is a good stategy, but it's unlikely to prevent infections.

Originally Posted by DSEL74

Well I have had a nasty cough that has been getting progressively worse over the last 3 weeks or more. To the point that all those around me have been insisting I go to the Dr.

The Dr did some tests and advised me that I do not have a cold and my nasal and ears are all clear I only have an upper lung infection. Which he then followed up on have I been involved with any industrial dust? I said I have done two jewellery boxes, and a hall table recently.
I am now on a strong antibiotic four times a day and have to use a inhaler up to eight times a day and a steam treatment once a day.
So it doesn't take a prolonged exposure to wood dust it can be just one time to make you sick.

Few people appreciate this can happen to anyone.

I have a vacuum system with a HEPA filter I use . . . .

If you read the dust forum you will know that I have been testing all kinds of vacuum cleaners and DCs.
Most of the vacuum cleaners (VCs) including those with HEPA filters I have tested can collect dust from hand power tools but are nowhere near as effectiive s at capturing very fine dust especially from machinery. More significantly than this, most VCs actually make more fine dust than they capture. Even very expensive vacuum cleaners eventually become contaminated and their motors generate significant quantities of fine dust and very few have enough oomph to be vented outside a shed. As far as I am concerned VCs are so bad at dust collection I do not keep one in my shed. The only way I would use a VC would be to have it inside an airtight box that was vented outside a shed via a dust collector.

I haven't installed the carbatec dust extractor but that is just about mess and doesn't filter the fine dangerous particles.

This is not correct - the efficiency of seasoned needle felt bags and pleated filters is equivalent to medium - low grade HEPA filters.
The problems for small (eg 1 HP) dust extractors (DCs) are they are very ineffective (low CFM) so they do not capture dust at source from machinery.
Even bigger DCs that should have much higher air flows will perform poorly if ducting less than 150 mm is used.
A problem for most DCs is that many of the them leak around the bags and impeller outlet.
This is why ALL DCs should be located or vented outside a shed.

My cousin gave me a Sundstrom mask (SR100) and i will get the P3 particle filters for it and hopefully it will allow me to continue wood working. The cheap rubber mask apparently aren't much good even though they are reasonably expensive. The Sundstrom is what he used when prepping and painting for boeing and you can even get gas & radiation filters so I will be equipped if there is a zombie breakout or nuclear war zone!.

Masks still have a lot of problems for woodworkers and I would not rely on them alone.
I have written about these till I am blue in the face about it in the DUST forum.
Here is a summary about masks I wrote a while back.

Since fine dust hangs around in the air for hours or even days, even if masks filter down to 0.1 microns, masks are only of any value if they worn full time from the moment of first dust making activity until you leave the shed and take the clothes off you were wearing when making the dust. This effectively means wearing a mask full time in a shed. Masks also do not protect your skin and the fine dust gets into clothes and hair so as soon as a mask is removed warm rising air from around a body forces fine dust up around a wearers face. Outside it will depend on how much breeze is blowing. Masks should only be used when there is nothing else available or in addition to proper shed based Dust control

Really effective dust control in a hobby level shed starts with a fullly ducted 3HP or greater dust extractor located or vented outside a shed opposite the greatest ventilation opening in a shed.
Target flow rates of 1000 CFM at source and air speeds of 4000 FPM in ducting are needed.
Ducting with permanent connections to stationary machines is superior to moving machines and connecting and disconnecting DC connections which releases dust.
The DC should be run for 15-20 minutes after the last dust making activity to clear the shed of fine dust, small DCs may need to be run for hours after the last dust making activity.
Leave the vacuum cleaners to mess up your house or for use only with power tools and place the VC in an air tight box vented by a DC.
Masks to be used as a top up rather than a final solution.

I say all this as a woodworker who lost his sense of smell for 6 weeks and a budding asthmatic.
Oh yeah, and 30 odd years experience in dust control measure for ultraclean environmental sample prep laboratories.

Originally Posted by jhovel

I go along with that question.
How does a 'carcinogenic' cause an infection? Infections are casused by micro-organisms (bacteria, vruses, fungi).
Carcinogens cause cancer - and antibiotics don't treat cancer....

I agree these terms are confused.
Well before it is carcinogenic, wood dust is a very effective irritant.
It has to do this - plants have few other defences than to irritate whatever attacks it.
If a membrane, tissue, organ is irritated for long enough it can more easily become infected ie more open to attack from what you said above, lead to lasting and debilitating allergies, OR if combined with added chemical effects could lead to cancer.

1. From what I understand the dust sitting in my lungs has caused an infection, much like a splinter can get infected.
2. I don't think I have cancer at this stage, no reason too, but that does not mean it is not carcinogenic. You can smoke a cigar for the first time and it can make you cough, and you probably won't get lung cancer but it doesn't mean smoking doesn't cause cancer! as I stated "All wood dust is carcinogenic and some more likely to irritate than others"….It can irritate and it is carcinogenic, to separate things from the same source.
3. post hoc ergo propter hoc? Post hoc ergo propter hoc, Latin for "after this, therefore because of this", is a logical fallacy (of the questionable cause variety) that states "Since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one." It is often shortened to simply post hoc. Post hoc is a particularly tempting error because temporal sequence appears to be integral to causality. The fallacy lies in coming to a conclusion based solely on the order of events, rather than taking into account other factors that might rule out the connection.
   - Well there is a relationship, and that is what a diagnosis is and it was deemed due to the symptoms and possible causes and recent events that this was deduced to be the most likely cause. I live in a house with 4 other adults and two dogs and I am the only one ill. It also started after I had just done some sanding. It had been previously suggested that this may be the cause, but the Dr brought it up as the most likely perpetrator and asked if I had been exposed before I mentioned i had been woodworking.
   
   
   
4. I never thought I was at risk because i had done relatively little wood work,(limited exposure, not prolonged) and was not aware of the level of risk wood potentially presented. I had no idea it was carcinogenic. So I posted not to scare anyone but as I said people may want to give it some thought as i hadn't really and was sort of going through the motions more on a cleanliness and not a health level.
5. Everyone is free to believe what they want and practice there own methods, I don't think my post was preachy or over dramatic. Some people wear safety glasses some don't, many people still drink & drive as they think they are safe to do so.
6. This is a response to some post here and also PMs I have received.

BobL - Thanks for your input and when your workspace is not your own you can only facilitate the most effective solution that the situation allows. I have read that in the US a lot of people are also adding in an air purifier to sit on the rook to filter the circulating air remaining. I also will be investing the best setup I can afford.

Your post was NOT overly 'preachy' or 'dramatic', but your heading was. IF you have an infection, and IF it was caused by inhaling wood dust, and IF it is being successfully treated with antibiotics, then it is quite some leap to connect those events with wood as a 'silent killer' and /or with the term 'carcenogenic'. Wood dust may indeed be carcenogenic, but your experience does not justify that conclusion.

The mobile cells in your lungs which deal with airborne junk are the macrophages (big eaters.)

When you get dust of any sort in your lungs, the macrophages attempt to engulf/eat it and digest it. Clearly with mineral dust and resistant wood dusts, sub-micron particle sizes, yes, the cells take it in.

a) this keeps a lot of macrophages busy, fewer of them left to deal with potential infection from bacteria, etc.
b) the indigestible particle compromises the macrophage and it dies. Then another macrophage comes along, engulfs the dead one and gets the "rock in the snowball."
This goes on and on and on and on.
c) the chronic irritation induces fibroblast cells to produce non-elastic connective fiber, which reduces the elastic lung volume. Commonly called scarring. Scar tissue doesn't work like the real thing. Not ever.
d) the properties of various mineral dusts are such that they may have really nasty organic molecules stuck to them.

Some how, the sum of the irritants and the irritation can make changes in the normally orderly business of cell division. Seems that this can lead to neoplasms in those people who might be genetically predisposed to vulnerability.

Yep, I had the same problem and got the same diagnosis from my doc, same treatment also. After month all well but had to use the inhaler for a couple of months. I take dust more seriously now and just a little exposure I use the inhaler. I don't do any sanding without a face mask now.

SB