Thread: CA/Wax/BLO Finishes

Originally Posted by dai sensei

My question is, how does the CA perform over time over wax/oil products? Is it only a matter of time before it delaminates, or am I worrying about nothing?

Occasionally I'll apply a nitrocellulose sanding sealer before CA, but only on open-grained woods that really need it. CA over Shellawax? Never! I know others do it, but I believe you're quite right about the finish being less durable over time.

Nor do I go t'other way and apply Shellawax over a CA base. I see no point in applying Shellawax over plastics/epoxys, and I treat CA as the same. If I start with CA, I finish with it.

(Nor do I apply PolyU over Danish Oil, CA or Shellawax, nor CA over PolyU, DO or Shellawax nor... )

Sounds interesting, i have given some thought to what was said, need someone who has tried it over a length of time to comment on it, I will keep an eye on mine, I find it helps me to put on the CA easier and gives a better shine, but that is because I really haven't mastered the CA finish yet. Amos

Originally Posted by Skew ChiDAMN!!

Nor do I go t'other way and apply Shellawax over a CA base. I see no point in applying Shellawax over plastics/epoxys

I use EEE/Glow over the CA after sanding to 1200. It saves me sanding to those really fine grades whilst still giving it that really glossy finish. But wax over CA shouldn't be a problem, it's the other way round I'm worried about.

The last pen I did I used 1 coat of Thin CA to seal then sanded to 1200 then 3 coats med CA, after each application of CA it was then hit with accelerator, then wet sanded from 1500 MM to 12000 MM.

Originally Posted by dai sensei

I use EEE/Glow over the CA after sanding to 1200. It saves me sanding to those really fine grades whilst still giving it that really glossy finish. But wax over CA shouldn't be a problem, it's the other way round I'm worried about.

OK... there seems to be a bit of confusion here.

• EEE isn't Shellawax, anymore than the Sh!thot WaxStik is. 'Tis just another one of Neil's products. . I use it the same way you do, it's a cutting compound more than anything and as such I consider it more a part of the sanding process than a "finish coat" in itself.
• Wax, on the other hand, will go over anything. But almost nothing will go over wax.
• Shellawax isn't wax... it's shellac based. (I think.) So I treat it as a shellac and it don't go over CA, CA don't go over it.

To cut it short: I believe you have good reason to think that CA over Shellawax isn't a good idea for a long term finish.

I am with Skew on this, see guys, we can agree on stuff hey Skew. The idea laying down EEE or Shellawax/Glow and then putting CA over them does not seem right. That is like people laying down oil and applying Shellawax over the oil, in both cases it is not warrented they should be used as the finishes that they are. Skew I think you are right in that Shellawax is a shellac based friction polish.

For a CA finish I sand to 400 W&D and seal with thin CA. I then sand from 1500 to 12000 MM and wipe clean with a dry cloth not with DNA. I lay down 10 coats of thin CA on top of each other using an aerosol accelerator between each coat. I find the liquid one cause more whitening of CA than the aerosol. With the lathe running I mist the CA from about 30cm and have had no problems of whitening.

I use 400 W&D and smooth out the finish with the lathe turned off. I do this process a further 2 times, so a total of 30 coats, some may think it is overkill but it gives a beautiful depth to a high class pen. Have a look at some pool cue makers, they use CA on cues and some use more than 30 coats. Once the finish is smoothed out I sand 1500 to 12000 MM, then use EEE to cut the finish then a pre polishing compound followed by a jewellers polishing compound called Dilux.

CA/BLO finish has had issues of clouding, I know a few that still use it but not many now. Because the BLO needs a high temerature to set it some times trough burnishing it is not achieved, the BLO is in the timber and tends to still be damp under the CA and it can't dry so it clouds the CA. A lot of the guys in the State say they use a friction polish over the CA to protect the fininsh, too me it doesn't seem to make a difference.

This is somethings I have read and learnt along the way, it is not gospel. Everybody that does a CA or CA/BLO finish does it differently than each other.
Darren

This is my technique for finishing.

I make as smooth a final cut as possible, with a sharp skew, the lathe running at max speed, 3500 RPM. I find that this leaves a finish on the wood that is shinny and needs little work.

Start sanding at #320, lathe at about 250 rpm, heat is the enemy

I lightly sand with the lathe running for just a few seconds, then turn off the lathe and sand with the grain, left to right, on the length of the blank.

I then flood the blank with Cellulose Sanding Sealer, I make sure the blank gets really soaked, this usually will POP the grain and add great depth to the wood. The Cellulose sanding sealer dries fast. I turn the lathe on again, and I rub the blank with a clean piece of white cloth, avoid COLORED cloth at all costs!! I then lightly sand again with #320, lathe on and off, then blow off the sanding dust, the reapply the Cellulose sanding sealer, let dry and sand at #400, I find that this part makes or breaks the finish, if you do not spend enough time getting the scratches out of the wood by sanding lengthwise, you are sunk, DAMHIKT!!

**Important note, until I get a nice base of CA glued up, while I'm sanding wood, I use the brown garnet paper.

I then turn the lathe back on, at about 250 RPM, I have the fast drying thin CA glue, I hold the glue in my right hand and I put one of the small ziplock bags that the pen parts come in on my left index finger, I hold the edge of the bag with my left thumb, so it stays on my finger.

I drop one drop or two of CA glue on the slowly rotating blank, with the left ziplock enclosed finger, I rub it under the blank, fairly quickly from left to right to spread a thin, smooth coat of CA glue, I then take my finger off the blank, before the glue starts to get tacky. I then let it cook off like that. I have a bright spot light in my desk lamp over the lathe that I will lower near the blank if it is cold in the Dungeon.

Usually in a couple of minutes, the CA will cook off, and the surface is ready for sanding.

I usually sand one more time with the #400, then the #600 wet and dry, blow it off with the compressor, and then apply the next coat of CA glue.

I find in the first application of the CA glue, on the pen blank, with just the sanding sealer on it will take more CA glue to get full coverage, but after the first coat, the second and third coat only need a small drop of CA glue. If you put on too much, you just get a thick mess, avoid this.

After I have three coats of CA glue nice and smooth on the pen, I then go to #800, #1000, #1200, #1500 and then the synthetic steel wool stuff.

All at 250 RPM, and all with the lathe stopped between grits, sanding lengthwise, and blowing off the excess dust created by sanding. You have to use clean, unclogged paper all the time. I take a sheet of sandpaper and slice it in half lengthwise, then in to strips about 1 1/4" wide, I find I waste a lot less paper this way. I write the grit number on the back of each piece, or I can end up using the wrong piece and set myself back a bit.

I clip the 14 or so pieces of sand paper I get from each sheet cut up, in a steel clip, for papers (but not a paper clip).

Finally, I take the lathe back up to about 1500 rpm, and use the turners wax on it, rub on a good coat, then with the lathe still running, I have a 3" wide buffing wheel mounted on a mandrel in a hand drill, I use this for the final buffing.

The last thing that I do before I take the blanks off the lathe, is to clean up the tenon on the short, top blank, where the middle ring goes, as often the CA glue will make this tenon rounded, not a nice crisp 90.

Some of the terms you guys are using, I'm not familiar with, is the Shellawax, like the friction polish, that is a combo of shellac & wax? I too could not see putting CA over that kind of finish.

Cheers!

You blokes are making a finish of Danish Oil sound quick and easy!

But no matter what finish you use, it's the amount of attention that goes into it that makes the difference between so-so and Wow!

Am I right that this "CA" finish I keep reading about on here is what we call "Super Glue" up here topside?

ca , super glue , crazy glue , hot stuff (brand name) , cyno ,cant remember how to spell the long one cummon skew what is it ? and ive got some realy good stuff im putting in the first aid kit called dermabond ( for sealing up thoughs really bad chisel cuts )any body else ?

"Cyanoacrylates" glue is CA.

Most every forum I'm on, in the US and Canada also call it "CA Glue"

cy·a·no·ac·ry·late (sī'ə-nō-ăk'rə-lāt')

Cyanoacrylate << if you go there, they even have a wave file that you can listen to the pronunciation of Cyanoacrylate

Cheers!

Originally Posted by Skew ChiDAMN!!

OK... there seems to be a bit of confusion here.

• EEE isn't Shellawax, anymore than the Sh!thot WaxStik is. 'Tis just another one of Neil's products. . I use it the same way you do, it's a cutting compound more than anything and as such I consider it more a part of the sanding process than a "finish coat" in itself.
• Wax, on the other hand, will go over anything. But almost nothing will go over wax.
• Shellawax isn't wax... it's shellac based. (I think.) So I treat it as a shellac and it don't go over CA, CA don't go over it.

To cut it short: I believe you have good reason to think that CA over Shellawax isn't a good idea for a long term finish.

EEE/Shellawax/GLOW are all different products, but to my knowledge, all contain wax. As Stu mentions, Shellawax and GLOW are a mixture of Shellac and wax - perhaps Neil can shed some light.

But I certainly agree with you that CA over any of them is not a good idea.

Originally Posted by bdar

CA/BLO finish has had issues of clouding, I know a few that still use it but not many now.

Thanks Darren, the CA/BLO was the one I wanted to try, but now I wont.

Originally Posted by bdar

A lot of the guys in the State say they use a friction polish over the CA to protect the fininsh, too me it doesn't seem to make a difference.

If you are sanding to 12000 finish then you are right about not making a difference, although I don't know about protection. But if like me, you are only sanding to 1200, then it helps with the gloss. I do know however, the wax finish does come off the CA eventually, but by then there are usually other imperfections and you don't notice.

Originally Posted by Stu in Tokyo

friction polish, that is a combo of shellac & wax?

That's what I thought.

Thanks for all the thoughts guys.

Thanks for asking the question Neil, I have found this thread most informative,Amos

Originally Posted by Skew ChiDAMN!!

You blokes are making a finish of Danish Oil sound quick and easy!

The way we write about CA finishes it does seem that way Skew, but laying 30 coats of CA and using the accelerator would be 5 to 6 minutes max.

But no matter what finish you use, it's the amount of attention that goes into it that makes the difference between so-so and Wow!

Skew is right, it is the preparation of the timber and what you do after you apply the finish that makes the difference. The cutting and buffing takes the longests for me. When it comes down to it I prefer quality to quantity