Thread: Dipping problems

Hi Alex,

I'm very new to pen turning, but have finished a lot of my pens using the lacquer dipping method.

I'll pass on what my experience at this stage as found for me.

I use a furniture lacquer, and dilute it 50% with lacquer thinners. I did try it undiluted, but found it to be too thick. By the time I put a couple of coats on, it left a small lip where it joins the pen parts.

One of things is temperature when curing I think. For a start, if its too cold, like overnight in the shed in winter, then the lacquer can go a little cloudy.The only real hassle I had with a pen was when I let it cure overnight and it was too cold. I have made up a drying cabinet out of scrap, it keeps dust off it when curing, and it has a small 20watt light bulb in it to keep the temperature up. I did a rough temperature, with it fully closed, the temp inside was in the mid to high 20's with the shed ambient temp being around 12 degrees at the time.

If its during the day, I leave it for about an hour to an hour and a half before I re-dip. If its curing at night, I leave it overnight with the light on, then redip in the morning.

When I cut it free, I use one of the craft knife that has a long retractable blade, the one where you can snap little bits of the end of the blade as you use it.

I use the entire length of the blade and roll the blade against the bushes as I roll the blank around, if that makes sense. My blanks are on a 1/4 " bolt with a nut above and below the bushes.

Don't put any pressure on the blade, just let the rolling motion make the cut, any pressure and you might likely stress and crack the edge on the blank.

Also, I cut about 1/2mm or a little more on to the steel bush, not on the line of the join or the blank. That way if it does stress a little, it won't damage the blank.

I then take the blank off the bushes with a twisting motion, before I take it off the bolt.Then clean up the end of the blanks using a twisting motion, using 400grit sandpaper on a flat surface. Twist, not rub, in order not to risk cracking the edge of the lacquer.

I get a clean edge, and a clear lacquer coat. I do several coats, at least three, sometimes up to 6 depending on how the surface finished, if the surface looks a little 'orange peel' like, then do another dip, each dip will cut back into the previous one and I end up with a hard glassy surface.

Hope that makes sense, I'm not professing to be any expert, but at this stage, I've had good success and will keep using lacquer.

If you have any other questions or suggestions, let me know.

-Gavin

Alex
I haven't had a chance to do a second run - I did sand off the offending lacquer but still have to disassemble the sierra and clean it up. the other blanks were for a sedona kit.

Gavin
Thanks for that.


I was going to try the wax on the bushes trick. The other thing was that I was going to make some bushes out of corian to use for dipping then I would be still able to turn while waiting. I've got the lamp ready but lost my box to my son who needed it for something else. I'll be definately having another try soon

Thanks Gavin,

I believe my mistakes have been mainly heavy pressure on the knife and scoring/cutting along the join line (between the blank and bush) and I finished up with de-lamination around the circumference of the end from 1-2mm. on the other end, I did try cutting along the bush (about 1mm from the join) and the separation was "clean" however I had a rim that had to be removed. While it came off relatively easily I was apprehensive in tempting fate using a freehand trimming technique and am hoping it was not just blind luck that succeeded in the "circumcision".

Also after speaking (email) with Ed Blysard (thanks again Ed), as I didn't know how to post questions, he gave me the clue of not letting the lacquer get rock hard but cured to a "handlable" hardness before the separation operation and then let it harden after trimming.

I won't embarrass myself by relating my catastrophe in trying to clean up and reclaim my failed attempt, needless to say I need to re-turn another blank before I can make my next dipping attempt.

Thanks again all,
Alex

Hi All,

The Cheshire cat has nothing on me. Grinning from ear to rear.

In case anyone in not having 100% success, this is what I did and managed successful surgical separation on 3 “production line” pen blanks.

I sanded fine (1200). Probably a total overkill as I touched up dust and bubbles between coats with 600. Dipped about 8 times for heavily blemished timber (black palm – pig to work with but I love the look, those that have used it will know what I mean). I did cheat in the drying as I brought the blanks inside onto the kitchen table so I could do the 8 dips during the course of the day (plus a bit) at about 1.5 - 2 hour intervals. Very lightly sanded out any micro air bubbles (with 600 for first 4 coats and 2000 last 4, why from 600 to 2000… dunno). If I didn't find any bubbles I didn't sand. Near the latter coats I very thoroughly inspected the pen for any of those micro air bubbles and if I noticed any, immedialely re-dipped and got rid of it.

After the last coat I waited about 4 hours (give or take 30 mins) and then with a sharp scalpel (hobby knife type) I cut around the circumference at about 1mm over all the bushes. The lacquer was still "soft" under the sharp edge of the knife yet hard enough to handle with a firm grip (I did use one of those linen white cleaning gloves to hold the blank - for the Aussies, I purchased them fro Priceline Pharmacy, they are ambidextrous which is great as I only use it on the left hand so I get double life – I also use these gloves for assembling friction finished pens when I haven’t got the time or patience to let the wax totally harden). I did two circumference passes on each end. I twisted the blank held by the gloved hand around the bush held firmly with the right. Once the first bush came off the rest sort of fell apart (controlled). On cranky adhesion, when gentle twisting did not work and I didn't want to vice grip the lacquered blank, I used a very gentle rocking motion. Usually 2 or 3 gentle rocks separated the two bits. Then immediately using the hobby knife, while the lacquer was still relatively "soft", I ran it around the flat end working with a pushing motion working towards the centre of the blank using continuous and gentle pressure (and the MJ glove).

Perfectly finished blanks. I then set them aside for a few days (and after those few days will elapse - as I have just separated the work) so when the lacquer has fully cured I can assemble the pen.

Thanks again for everyone’s assistance and I hope this may tie up a few loose ends anyone may be having trouble with.

P.S. I did have some slight air bubble problems, so if any-one knows any foolproof way I’d appreciate a post. The large bubbles were mo issue. It was those mongrel “micro” bubbles that caused me some grief.

Alex

Hi,

This is just what I've found when I started, don't know if it relates to what others have experienced.

A first couple of 'test' pieces I did, before I tried on pens, I had some adhesion problems with the lacquer. The first few times I sanded to 1200 or even further with micromesh. A couple of weeks after the lacquer was done, I found it started to flake off around the edges.

I seen from someone elses postings, that they only sand to 400, because any finer and sometimes the lacquer doesn't adhere to the surface properly. Don't know if that is true, but had three dodgy ones out of three. Stopped sanding to as fine a grit, and haven't had any flaking off since.

I don't bother to sand between dips, if there is a bubble, and its reasonably rare,as I dip it in a glass jar, and can see if there is any bubbles on the pen, if there is a slow stirring action will get it off. Don't stir too fast or you'll just create more bubbles. For a dip, I generally dip it up and down about ten times, to let the lacquer run off and then dip again. Sometimes I'll let it soak in there for a minute, if the previous coat is a bit rough, so the lacquer gets to dissove the eariler coat a bit. If there a bubble in the previous coat, I just crack it off with a knife and dip up and down or soak it until the lacquer 'cuts' back into the previous coat and gets rid of the indent that was there.

I've found having the thinner lacquer mix better than having it too thick, otherwise it doesn't 'cut' back properly. The first couple of coats look like orange peel sometimes, but that goes away after about the third or fourth dip.

I haven't seen any real small bubbles, it might depend on the type of lacquer. Either that or my eyesight isn't what it used to be.

Might be totally different from what others are doing, but its working OK for me. I don't profess to knowing too much, just blundering along and learning as I go. The great thing I do like about lacquer, is if the finish doesn't look great, just keep dipping, and eventually it'll come out nice. Pretty forgiving for newcomers.

My two bits worth any.

-Gavin

Hi, and for Gavin,

Somewhere I read that the author, of the article, painted his dipping bottle black as (if I remember correctly) prolonged exposure to light (UV?) discolors the lacquer. So I did the same. I have now moved to a clear dipping bottle and now I can clearly see the micro bubbles adhering to the blank. However, with a few taps on the side of the bottle, semi-aggressive swirls and if needed a quick re-dip, the micro bubbles floated off. Also (for the uninitiated) I may have had my mixture too thick. I initially did the recommended 50-50, however, to my novice eye I thought the mixture was too thin so I thickened it up (probably a bit impatient as well). I have now thinned the mix back down and the micro bubbles are getting less even before my tapping ritual.

For the Ausies, I am using an automotive acrylic lacquer supplied by Repco.

Thanks again Gavin for your input. It is helping a hell of a lot in refining my technique and hopefully other beginners may also benefit.

Sorry guy, I'm not trying to hog this forum, I'm hoping my banter may be of some assistance to some other unfortunate bunny.

Alex

I'm back.

Last posting had me happy as a piggin' and I have spent the last couple of days merrily sniffing the lacquer in the warm house finishing a new batch. Being new I am just currently building up my display so I have not been doing too much presentation. Having just finished dipping and assembling another couple of pens and went to admire my past dipping and totally freaked out .

Pens that assembled blemish free were now full of cracks everywhere. Predominantly around the circumference of the end (like a puckered old harridan’s mouth). There were also a number of’ cracks running diagonally and some around the pen near the centre of the "blank" for anywhere from 5mm to 20mm. There also seems to be some delamination around some of the cracks which may hint at not full adhesion/bonding to the previous layer.

However my only conclusion seems to lead to not as much temperature but maybe the type of lacquer I used. One that continually shrinks with prolonged drying. After what looked like a blemish free assembly (under magnification) finished up worse than crinkle cut chips after lying in the display box inside the house.

I have been using 1:1 Automotive Acrylic Lacquer Clearcoat thinned with the same brand thinner. When I scrape at the drip residue below, where I hung the pens, it seems to crumble away like brittle toffee. Could it be the wrong type of lacquer being used? Also I ranged the soaking time from maybe a quick dip or a "5 minute soak". Not consistent though. I have varied the number of coats between 5 and 10 as too many dips builds up quite a thickness of lacquer that may add an extra 1mm+ to the circumference of the blank making it disproportionate to the metal components.

In a nutshell the cured finish seems to be too brittle and the cracks look more like brittle stress cracks (or however else I could put it into words).

Looks like I'm back to square one, as I could honestly say I wouldn't want a pen with the finishes I am now stuck with (even for free).

My other problem is that the cracks appeared long after assembly so I don't know how to fix and some of the failures are in higher end pen kits that I don't have disassemblers for (1 Emperor, 1 Apollo, 2 Majestic, 1 Sierra and 2 Bullets). If anyone knows any safe disassembly tools/method I would appreciate. I do have spare tubes for some in case I can break the assembled pen apart somehow without damaging the other components.

Also any more feedback on my "bad soak" (or "soaker" lacquer used) would be appreciated.

Humble pie eater,
Alex

can't help with the lacquer problem as i'm trying to work out what lacquer to use as a wipe on myself, but as for disassembly, you'd be best buying a set of transfer punches. I got mine from psi and they're brilliant. Pretty much every size is covered. If you search for pen disassembly on their site you'll find it.

I'm also interested in the lacquer finish topic. I'm using spray nc right now but it's nearly impossible to get it right every time. I'm looking at a dip or preferably wipe on option with the same quick cure, high build and most importantly, durable coating that pre cat nc lacquer provides. I posted a topic in the finishing forum and got a couple of tips from that, but i still have no idea what lacquer to get, how much to thin it etc. I have the right stuff in those cans of mirotone. It's just that i need a non spray application.

Anyone know if mirotone do a pre cat one pack wipe on/dip? Cause i know that stuff doesn't 'craze' like the description alex gave. At least not in my experience.

This is the brand I used and I got an excellent finish with no problems. I diluted it 50/50 and but was doing it back in April. http://www.pylon.com.au/singlePack.html This was furniture lacquer.

thanks for that Barry did you use the pre cat? The hy tec one sounds promising... Where did you buy it from?

I use a Pre Cat Furniture laquer, in a 50/50 mix with thinners.

Ordered mine through Luxury Paints, 100% High Gloss, under the name of LuxLac.

-Gavin

Originally Posted by eisbaer

thanks for that Barry did you use the pre cat? The hy tec one sounds promising... Where did you buy it from?

I used the HyTech one I bought it from a local automotive paint supplier.
If you go to the contact us link on their site they would tell you where to get it.

fantastic. That's the one that looked appealing great tip mate. Thanks very much.

Thanks guys, must give it a try.