Thread: Hand Made/Crafted Pens?

Its all in the name.... well, almost.
The innards of my top of the range Waterman fountain pen that I bought several years ago are without doubt far, far superior to any of the kits that we can purchase.

But its just simple black plastic. OK its curved, and has a Japanese look to it, but its still black plastic. It doesn't have the same "aesthetic feel" as a good hand made burl pen though. And it isn't "hand crafted" in the sense that we would use the term. I'd rather have one that I made. But other people will buy the Waterman name rather than mine.

Rod

Personally I think you are spot on with what you are saying, there are certainly some inflated values out there ,and to compare the manufactured pens to a "hand crafted" pen is not really taking all things into consideration.As you said most of us buy a kit add a skin and do some sort of finish on it, a process that may take hrs or days in the main. The most expensive kit available generally is under $100 that I can find,and blanks range from nothing to about maybe $20 if that, there may well be more expensive options, I am too new in the game to know for sure.The power of advertising and brand is well known, and the costs of creating and maintaining that are equally well known. Me I enjoy the process and do the best I can within my own limitations, that I have to try and sell some finished works to continue enjoying the creative experience is a matter of finance hehe, no sell no buy , no hobby no fun. Of course all see this in their own light and so opinions will differ greatly, I would rather sell 10 slims at $25 and know at least ten people have a decent crafted pen, than one pen at $250 , but that's just me ,cheers

Originally Posted by Big Shed

In this thread and this one there is some discussion on the difference, if any, between "manufactured pens" and "hand made/crafted pens".

I thought I would start a new thread on this subject as I didn't want to hi-jack either of those the above threads and I think this subject merits some thought and discussion.

I ask the question: when does a pen become hand made/crafted?
After all the major components of the pens we make are assembled from a kit that we purchase. Our contribution to the final product is to turn a blank on a machine (lathe). That blank can be a natural product, such as wood or antler, or a man made material such as acrylic. Some of us even go an extra step and cast our own blanks, others add parts to the original kit such as bullet/cartridge pens. Yet others modify the kit in some way, eg closed end pens.

Some of the contributors to the above 2 threads make the point that our hand made/crafted pens are far superior to the manufactured pens that are available.

They also suggest that the prices for those manufactured pens are in excess of their worth and our hand made/crafted pens should sell for at least as much if not more.

Having had a close look at some of these manufactured pens at the Melbourne Pen Show, I was amazed at the quality and creativity of some of them, and I might say amazed at some of the prices as well!

Simomatra referred to The Penmakers' Guild, some of their members produce amazing pens, the likes of Jay Pickens, Skiprat, Richard Kleinhenz and others have produced pens of stunning quality and exceptional creativity.

I would suggest that these pens are at least equal in quality to the manufactured pens, and probably superior in the creative aspect.

Both of these categories however are far different from what most of us in this forum produce, as I said basically a manufactured kit to which we add a blank turned on a machine (lathe).

What do others think, can we justify asking in excess of $1000 for one of these pens and compete with the Viscontis and Conway Stuarts (and others) of this world?

Agree with you BigShed and very good point you raise.
The point I'd like to raise is, if for example one removes the external material from a manufactured brand name pen, the only thing left are the components which we all are familiar with. Some manufacturers don't even use brass barrels; they just drill through the synthetic blank, tap threads and screw both ends together to make 1 unit.

Those that do use brass barrels, are similar to the kits we buy. The attractiveness of the finished product is the skin, the externals the buyer can see and feel whether it be natural or synthetic, how well it is finished and how well it writes.
I believe that timber pens are always and will always have a much more natural feel than synthetics; they are more inviting and the variety of exotic highly figured timbers are much more aesthetically appealing than plastic.
Don't get me wrong there are some synthetics out there that are complete knockouts.
The pen makers from America you mentioned create their own metal components with metalworking machinery with solid precious metals; not like the plated kits we buy. To do this requires a very high level of skill in jewellery making and a considerable capital outlay.
I truly believe that any pen maker in Australia that chooses to go down this path will be very competitive for the Viscontis, Parkers, Mont Blancs etc. etc. and would rightly be justified in commanding prices in excess of $1000.

The pens we make are all handcrafted from the kits we use to complete them and believe the writing quality is on par and at times far better than the manufactured pens.
I don't believe a machine exists that can create a highly polished surface on a pen where for example, rustins plastic coating is used, which by the way is not plastic at all, but a 2 pack cold curing lacquer; too many processes involved for a machine to be precise.

Yes, pen manufacturers do make nice pens and command high prices but are they really worth that much? One must ask what criterion do they use to command their prices? If Visconti makes an emperor in snakewood or burl what price would they command? Would their quality be any better than that of the pen artisan?
Manufacturers commanding high prices are justified according to the materials they use; where solid precious metals are used which include creative engraving or embedded precious stones. All these embellishments are first impressions that attract the buyer to take notice and then to feel the writing quality and lastly the name.
I've also noticed that their high priced pens are not presented in timber cases, but "designer" cardboard. To pay over $1000 for a pen surely they can at least present it in an attractive timber case like Amos does. His boxes were stunning in figured Tassie blackwood.

Regards,
Evan

Evan, firstly let me say that I don't think any pen is worth over $1000, unless it was solid sterling silver or some other exotic material.

Even then I wouldn't spend that sort of money on a pen.

However that wasn't the point I was making.

I was asking how we can call our pens, and yes I include myself in this, hand made if the bulk of the pen components are mass produced in factories and the only "hand made" part is the blank/sleeve/skin, call it what you will.

As for the people I mentioned being all from America, at least one (skiprat) is from the UK (Wales), not that I think that is relevant.
You say they use metal working equipment to produce their components, yes they do and that is part of the point I am trying to make. They don't just assemble a pen kit, they make a pen from scratch, albeit with the aid of machinery.

Coming back to skiprat (Steven Jackson) again, I have seen pictures of his "workshop", pity I can't find them atm, but it is a very small cramped space shared with his little sports car which he has to remove before he can work. He has a cheap Chinese clone metal lathe and some other very rudimentary equipment. With this he produces pens of very high technical quality and superb imagination, using mainly aluminium and stainless steel. No precious metals here.

I have put up a picture of a couple of his latest pens, more of his pens can be viewed in The Pen Makers Guild, as well as IAP. He also has a tutorial on TPS on how to make an aluminium pen, you'll not see any high tech expensive equipment in that tutorial!

I'm not saying that this is the way every one one of us should go, but it illustrates that there is more to pen making than assembling a kit.

Originally Posted by RodNeep

Its all in the name.... well, almost.
The innards of my top of the range Waterman fountain pen that I bought several years ago are without doubt far, far superior to any of the kits that we can purchase.

But its just simple black plastic. OK its curved, and has a Japanese look to it, but its still black plastic. It doesn't have the same "aesthetic feel" as a good hand made burl pen though. And it isn't "hand crafted" in the sense that we would use the term. I'd rather have one that I made. But other people will buy the Waterman name rather than mine.

Rod

Rod, I wrote with some of the expensive manufactured pens and some of them had very impressive nibs. Of course people will buy "names", our whole society has been conditioned to do that.

One thing you can say for buying a "name" pen is that it should have some re-sale value down the road, something that our pens may or may not have.

They also have some "brag" value, which is important to a lot of people!

On the subject of nibs, there are quite a few people on IAP that fit very expensive nibs to their pens before selling them.

BigShed,

are you saying that if we penmakers don't make the metal parts ourselves, then our pens are not handmade? If I request the services of a metal worker or jeweller to make the metal parts according to my design specs, because I don't have the equipment or expertise, is the pen I finally complete not hand made?

The pens we make are all hand made because that is exactly what we do; use our hands with the appropriate tools to bore out the blanks, insert the brass tubes, turn, sand, finish and polish the upper and lower barrels and finally put it all together. All hand made whereas manufacturers use the assembly line to mass produce. Hand made can also mean, made by an individual away from a manufacturing environment.


If you make a cabinet or entertainment unit from solid timbers in your own shed and use metal components which are mass produced by a manufaturer to assemble it and complete its build structure using, screws, hinges, draw runners, handles, knobs, etc. does it mean it is not handmade?

Evan

are you saying that if we penmakers don't make the metal parts ourselves, then our pens are not handmade? If I request the services of a metal worker or jeweller to make the metal parts according to my design specs, because I don't have the equipment or expertise, is the pen I finally complete not hand made?

It would certainly much more "hand made" than if you used a kit, but obviously not all your own work.

The pens we make are all hand made because that is exactly what we do; use our hands with the appropriate tools to bore out the blanks, insert the brass tubes, turn, sand, finish and polish the upper and lower barrels and finally put it all together. All hand made whereas manufacturers use the assembly line to mass produce. Hand made can also mean, made by an individual away from a manufacturing environment.

Then by the same token would you call a Holden car "hand made" because people use their hands?

If you make a cabinet or entertainment unit from solid timbers in your own shed and use metal components which are mass produced by a manufaturer to assemble it and complete its build structure using, screws, hinges, draw runners, handles, knobs, etc. does it mean it is not handmade?

Slightly different scenario here, you have made the majority of the article and are using the hardware as an adjunct to to finish it off.

But if you bought a flat pack cabinet and put it together with your hands, then painted it..................?

Big Shed does have a point, I hesitate to use the term "handmade" when describing my stuff. Technically if you use a machine (eg lathe) then it's not handmade. The pen kits we buy are pumped out by machines in Taiwan, so if you think about, they ain't handmade are they?

For a while I've been contemplating making a pen from scratch. Something like an emperor, all made out of timber, with hand carved details. Nothing but exotic (and aussie) timbers would be used. With the exception of the refill, threads etc.

Originally Posted by Big Shed

Then by the same token would you call a Holden car "hand made" because people use their hands?

No, most cars are not hand made; they're mass produced on an assembly line by use of robotics. Only the exotic cars, ferrari, lamborgini, maserati, aston martin to name a few have few components which are completely hand made.

Slightly different scenario here, you have made the majority of the article and are using the hardware as an adjunct to to finish it off.?

I was using a different example in a different scenario.

But if you bought a flat pack cabinet and put it together with your hands, then painted it..................?

Absolutely no. Flat packs are production line material. Hand painting is a hand craft. Spray painting is a hand craft with the aid of spray painting equipment.

To complete my statement, I'd like to ask, if all woodworkers build furniture from solid timbers from rough sawn stock to end product using their hands and skills to make all the joinery without the aid of mechanical means, then by what you imply it is not hand made because the woodworker did not also make his own glue. The line has to be drawn somewhere.

Cheers,

Evan

This may not be coherent, but here goes....

If you see 10 pictures in an art gallery all identical, and are told 1 is the original hand drawn, and the rest are prints, which one is more valuable? Would you expect to pay the same for the prints, as the original? I don't think so, so where is the "value" becasue one is hand drawn?

I think anything you can say was some how created in a non-mass produced way imparts value, and the more of it that is made from scratch adds more value, and the more that those scratch created parts depart from what is available elsewhere, adds more value. Any copy made of that final product will never be as valuable, even if it looks exactly the same, or better, because people value the effort put into a creation as much as the end result itself. The more effort put into something, the more value it has.

However, the big pen makers may put hundred of hours into making a perfect pen, and producing a production line to churn it out by the hundreds. The hundreds of hours make the original valuable, but the mass produced ones, apart from the "cost" of materials in it, are not perceived to have that same value, but the manufacturers still have to recoup their costs, which is where the argument starts I think.

Us as crafters primarily (originally at least) will alwasy tend to undervalue our work, because we quite often see our time as "free" and it's therefore material cost + profit. If you compared the pay rate for a top level professional, at say $100/hr (assuming you are doing a good job on the technicalities of the finished product), then calculate how much time it takes you to make a pen, then even the humble slimline becomes expensive, and the differential between a "cheap" kit and an "expensive" kit should be much closer, with the difference being mainly materials and the extra effort put into the better quality kit. But we compensate more for the percieved and material value, making a larger variation between the common and the less common kits.

Personally, being still in the learning stage, I'm still struggling to ask what would be a real "materials + effort + profit" cost for my pens. I still explain to people when I show them my "hand made" pens, that I make the middle bits, and not the metal parts. I value those sculptured metal, gem & other material pens made like jewelry as streets ahead of what generally is shown here, and worth the extra money, if it is truly a one of a kind, fully hand crafted item. I see the "kitless" pens made on IAP, and while I don't necessarily find them as asthetically pleasing as the kitted pens, I do appreciate the work to make a kitless pen, and add extra intrinsic value to it because of that effort, and aspire to one day make my own kitless pens.

So, are our pens worth the price we ask? Probably.

Can we claim them as hand-made? Yes, but I think there are "levels" of hand-made.

Are some pens worth $1,000? To some people yes, if the prestige is of value to them, regardless of whether it's hand-made or not. If they like what they see and what it implies, they will happily pay the asking price, or look elsewhere for something that they think is wortht the asking price.

Will Joe Public ever pay more than $1.00 for something to write on their telephone note pad with? Not generally, but that doesn't mean we should sell our pens for $1, or we demean the value of our time & effort. We should however not become complacent, and always strive for better and more pleasing results, as a flood of poor quality and unoriginal "hand-made" pens onto the open market will only reduce that percieved uniqueness which is the foundation of where the things we do gain the value that we ascribe to them.

I hope that rambling dissertation has touched on some of the points you've asked, and contributed to the discussion positively.

Russell.

Evan, I think we are descending in to argument for the sake of argument here.

I would hate this to degenerate in to semantics.

I'm a bit surprised at your change in attitude since you said this in your first post here:

Originally Posted by Evan Pavlidis

Agree with you BigShed and very good point you raise.

Regards,
Evan

I am not rubbishing the pens we make, far from it, I enjoy making them as much as you obviously do. I am just questioning whether we can truthfully call them hand made when such a large percentage of the pen consists of a mass produced kit.

Russell makes some very good points about adding value, which is what I was on about when I talked about people like skiprat and making closed end pens, making your own centre bands or finials.

Originally Posted by BoomerangInfo

I think anything you can say was some how created in a non-mass produced way imparts value, and the more of it that is made from scratch adds more value, and the more that those scratch created parts depart from what is available elsewhere, adds more value. Any copy made of that final product will never be as valuable, even if it looks exactly the same, or better, because people value the effort put into a creation as much as the end result itself. The more effort put into something, the more value it has.

However, the big pen makers may put hundred of hours into making a perfect pen, and producing a production line to churn it out by the hundreds. The hundreds of hours make the original valuable, but the mass produced ones, apart from the "cost" of materials in it, are not perceived to have that same value, but the manufacturers still have to recoup their costs, which is where the argument starts I think.

Russell.

Another way we can add value to our pens is providing quality nibs on our fountain pens and, on the more expensive ones provide a nice "hand made" box (as you already suggested) as well as perhaps a bottle of quality ink rather than a cheap no-name ink cartridge of dubious value.

We can provide a small printed card/leaflet with pen care instructions, withknow the story behind the materials used, let people what that snakewood is all about, what tree it came from.

Doing those sorts of things will set us apart from the "manufacturers", not claiming that ours are hand made and theirs are not.

Fred

Fred,I also have thought about what you have said. I know that I usually qualify my statement " I made these pens" with "that is the wood part, the metal part I purchase",; I often have the urge to make the complete pen- But- I lack the expertise at the moment, I think things like hand turned centre ring and closed end pens are the first step towards this.
The fine details like a small sheet of paper with pen care, wood type, and history are excellent things that are a "must" do in presenting pens for sale, unfortunately I have not got around to it-- too busy making pens-- so I need to lay off and get some of these things done. They are not difficult things, especially if you know how to use power point,( which I need to learn to do!!!!), .
As for pricing, that is one thing that I learnt at this past pen show, and I need to overall my prices.
Are our pens hand made?, well the way I see it, they are, but we need to be open about what part we didn't make. As a new penturner finds out , there is an art to it, even though it is just the wood part, and it takes time to develop skill so that a pen looks good and is good. Also various woods have their own peculiar characteristics which demand skill to turn;
Could we in any way compare ourselves to watchmakers, Some assemble the watch from pre-made gears, others make their own gears and assemble them. So there is a degree where something is more handmade than something else.
I will stop rambling here--- off to the lathe! Amos

Originally Posted by Big Shed

Evan, I think we are descending in to argument for the sake of argument here.

I would hate this to degenerate in to semantics.

I'm a bit surprised at your change in attitude since you said this in your first post here:



I am not rubbishing the pens we make, far from it, I enjoy making them as much as you obviously do. I am just questioning whether we can truthfully call them hand made when such a large percentage of the pen consists of a mass produced kit.

Russell makes some very good points about adding value, which is what I was on about when I talked about people like skiprat and making closed end pens, making your own centre bands or finials.



Another way we can add value to our pens is providing quality nibs on our fountain pens and, on the more expensive ones provide a nice "hand made" box (as you already suggested) as well as perhaps a bottle of quality ink rather than a cheap no-name ink cartridge of dubious value.

We can provide a small printed card/leaflet with pen care instructions, withknow the story behind the materials used, let people what that snakewood is all about, what tree it came from.

Doing those sorts of things will set us apart from the "manufacturers", not claiming that ours are hand made and theirs are not.

Fred

Fred, in no way am I descending into an argument; not by any stretch. I was merely expressing that our pens are hand made as opposed to the mass produced brands and comparing the quality. I agree with some points you made, but not all.

I agree with you that we can improve the saleabilty of our product by means of presentation with pen care instructions, timber species description, type and method of finish, type and description of metal component platings which all add to the cost and must be recouped. All these can help, but at the end of the day, most consumers would think twice about spending $200 or $300 for a pen made by an unknown artist as opposed to spend for example $1000 for a well known brand synthetic pen.

I'm very much inclined to say that, most of that $1000 would be for the brand name alone.

I've seen skiprats pens and very impressive they are. When you have the materials and equipment the sky is the limit for creativity. The kits we buy are stock standard and there is no variety for any one type of kit for us to be more creative (ie. several different type of clips or centre bands for emperors or churchills or statesmans), but only use different materials for the externals making the whole process limited for creative expression.

Cheers,
Evan

Hehe! all this sort of reminds me of the scientist talking to "GOD" and explaining how far we have progressed ,and now we can create life the same way he did. God says to him "very well" show me !. The scientist stoops down to pick up some soil, and god says ,no no no, make your own soil. Point is we take something already existing and combine it with our creativity and materials to make a whole , eg, you press a nib into a slimline one end of the tube and a twist mechanism into the other end, press a filial with a clip into the other tube and push the two parts together ,you have a functioning twist pen. Not so pretty for sure, so we dress it up with whatever takes our fancy and we hopefully have an aesthetic looking functional piece of equipment, all we have added is the looks, it was a functional item before we started apart from the assembly process, so probably hand made does not quite fit, but hand-crafted would be more accurate.