Thread: Pen Mandrel sizes

Originally Posted by aak

Hi All,

While I am waiting for my lathe to arrive I thought I look into getting some of the tools/parts needed to make some pens. It would seem that there are several pen mandrells (1/4", 7mm, 8mm, at least so far, I think I have seen a 10mm somewhere, but could be more out there) all come with either MT1 or MT2 taper. Some come with bushes, some without them. Some websites do not list the size of the mandrel they sell. They are only called MT1 or MT2 pen making mandrel. How does one know which one/s to order?

I have seen pen mill with 2, 4 or 6 cutting edges. Which one is best to get? I assume the more cutting edges it has the smooter the finished cut will be. However, it will be more difficult to sharpen it. Is the one with 6 cutting edges an overkill?

I also found that some kits come with everything needed included. Am I forced to purchase the mandrel and bushes from the same supplier/manufacturer? And maybe even the kits?

Your advice would be greatly appreciated.

Regards
Andy

Andy, as far as I am aware there are only 2 mandrel sizes for pen kits. The "A" mandrel, the most universal one, is 1/4". The "B" madrel, used only for Berea kits AFAIK, is 5/16".
So start with the A mandrel and get the B mandrel as and when required. I bought the adjustable mandrel from Carrolls (good place to shop) and found it be a good tool. It is only available with the A mandrel however.
I have since obtained a set of ER25 collets and a collet chuck and that is what I use now.
If all they tell you is MT1 or MT2, then I think it is safe to "assume" that is an A mandrel, all you need to choose is the correct Morse Taper for your lathe.

I bought a 4 blade pen mill, didn't like it, have now changed to using my disk sander which gives me far better results. I have been given a 6 cutter head, it does a far better job, but I think I will stick with the disk sander.

As fa as buying everything from the same manufacturer, not really required at all times, but buyer beware applies here. For instance I bought some kits labelled Sedona, but made by Datacom, they were a completely different tube size (both length and OD) from the Berea ones I already had. So until you know all the little pitfalls, it pays to ask questions and check everything with your (digital) calipers

Originally Posted by Big Shed

Andy, as far as I am aware there are only 2 mandrel sizes for pen kits. The "A" mandrel, the most universal one, is 1/4". The "B" madrel, used only for Berea kits AFAIK, is 5/16".
So start with the A mandrel and get the B mandrel as and when required. I bought the adjustable mandrel from Carrolls (good place to shop) and found it be a good tool. It is only available with the A mandrel however.
I have since obtained a set of ER25 collets and a collet chuck and that is what I use now.
If all they tell you is MT1 or MT2, then I think it is safe to "assume" that is an A mandrel, all you need to choose is the correct Morse Taper for your lathe.

I bought a 4 blade pen mill, didn't like it, have now changed to using my disk sander which gives me far better results. I have been given a 6 cutter head, it does a far better job, but I think I will stick with the disk sander.

As fa as buying everything from the same manufacturer, not really required at all times, but buyer beware applies here. For instance I bought some kits labelled Sedona, but made by Datacom, they were a completely different tube size (both length and OD) from the Berea ones I already had. So until you know all the little pitfalls, it pays to ask questions and check everything with your (digital) calipers

Hi Fred,

Thank you for the quick response. My lathe is coming from Jim, so I do know about Carroll's.

Actually the "Berea A" mandrel is listed as "Morse Taper # 2 with a 7mm industrial grade shaft" at addictivepenkits.com.au and the "B" is listed as 8mm, but they very well could be 1/4" and 5/15" rater than the listed numbers.

"....set of ER25 collets and a collet chuck and that is what I use now." What are these? I have not heard of them before.

My disc sander is not accurate enough in my view to be used to sqare the ends up, so I will get a 6 edge pen mill for the time being.

I like the Cigar and Sierra kits from Berea. I also like some of the other pens I have seen people making, I just do not know at this point who makes the various models. In time I will look for them on the net.

Thanks also for the heads up on some kits not quite the same as others. I will use my calipper too! I am like a happy kid with a new toy. Just would have gone ahead trying to make the pen and would have only started to think about using the caliper if I run into some problems!

Regards
Andy

You won't have any trouble with an A mandrel and Berea's Cigar and Sierra as both use the A mandrel. Some of their larger pens, eg. Churchill and El Grande are the ones that use the B mandrel.

Do you know what your MT size is going to be on your lathe? Identify the breed if you are not sure and someone here will know.

To complicate things, you can also find (with the dint of a lot of effort) bushes for almost all kits that will fit the A mandrel. This is because almost every pen-turner starts with an A mandrel. Also, most "adjustable length" mandrels are sized to an A so these bushes can be used on them, too.

It's also a fairly simple matter to make your own bushes - even wooden, copper or corian ones will do once you've learned to not sand/turn away your bushes.

However, if a B mandrel will fit inside the tube, always try to use it and the appropriate bushes. Being thicker, it's more rigid and can help avoid some issues with flex. Basically: it gives a better finish with less work. (You need to be pretty fussy to actually pick the difference, but a good pen-maker will pick it. )

Andy,
To add to the Big Sheds post...
Most common size for mandrel shafts is 1/4'...it fits inside the 7mm pen kit tubes with out bushing to support it, the ID of the 7mm kit tubes is about 1/1000th larger than 1/4", the bushings that come with most mandrels are really spacers.
#MT1 and #MT2...Morse tapper 1 is the older taper size, small and very slender it is found on older "craftsman" style and home shop style lathes, and on most Sherline and Unimat lathes.
#MT2 is pretty much the defacto standard today, it is found on the Jet, Rikon, Delta, Powermatic mini and midi lathes, and on most of the bigger lathes like Nova, OneWay and such.
Almost every lathe made in China or Taiwan will have a #2MT.
#MT3, while not common on lathes designed and marketed for home use, can be found, but tooling for this bigger taper is not common to wood working.
Most, but not all lathes use a #MT2 in the tailstock, simply because most accesories are made with a #MT2 taper, like drill chucks and such.

Collets are a machine tool, available for most home shop model lathes...
here is a link to Amazon to give you an idea and a picture to visualize...check your local wood shop tool supplers, or a machine tool supplier for one, depending on the set, they can grip almost any diameter shaft or round stock.

http://www.amazon.com/s.html/ref=pd_...&index=blended
Like most, you will at some time make your own regular mandrel and special mandrels, and using a collet system will expand your ability to mount these mandrels, bottle stopper shafts, even drills, mills and other tooling...it is a good investment a little farther down the line.

Most of the 7mm or 1/4" mandrels use bushings designed to fit snug inside the pen kit tube...most have a 1/4" hole through them, then a lip to fit inside and support the tube the tube, and the out side diameter is the same as the finished OD of the pen.
7mm kit tubes simply slip on the mandrel shaft proper, and the bushing provide the OD you turn down to.
Most are interchangable in that the bushings from, say kit seller A and kit seller B both will fit on a 1/4" or 7mm mandrel...but as was pointed out, some kits that appear the same or are sold under the same name come from different manufactors...it is best to buy that kit makers propriatary bushings to fit their specific kit...later on, you will figure out whose stuff is really interchangable.

Looking at the sponsors of this site, I can see several large distributors of lathe tools and such..a good idea is to go on line and ask them to send you a catalog...silly as it sounds, a picture is worth a thousand words, and often simply seeing the tool explains its use better than anything else...plus you will find all kinds of neat stuff.

Originally Posted by aak

Hi Fred,


"....set of ER25 collets and a collet chuck and that is what I use now." What are these? I have not heard of them before.

Regards
Andy

Andy have a look here and you'll see what I am talking about. These are the best thing since sliced bread IMHO.

Thank you for all of you above (not sure how to get everyones name correctly here without messing them up), lot of good advice.

The lathe I am waiting for is a small Vicmarc, the VL100 without the motor. The lathe is a present from my wife (in case you did not see my other thread). It comes from Jim Carroll. Once it arrives I will work out where (read which bench) to mount it on or if I do not like it where I can put it, then maybe I will make a new bench for it. I believe it has a MT2 taper, so all the tools, accessories will need to be MT2 too. I plan to get a 1Hp motor for it (Robo's recommendation). I know it is not needed for the pens, but I may get into bigger things too in the future.

When it comes to woodturning, I am the absolute biginner. I have done a few tool handles, handles for whips when I was about 16 years old. That is it!

So I will just try to turn a square piece of wood and make it round, then I will make a couple of circles from MDF for discs, then a few chisel handles and maybe after that the pens. I need to figure out which chisel to use for what cut and actually feel it in my hand how it works. I am reading articles on that at present. I have a long way to go!

Regards
Andy

Originally Posted by Big Shed

Andy have a look here and you'll see what I am talking about. These are the best thing since sliced bread IMHO.

Thanks for that Fred,. was just about to ask the question..

Originally Posted by munruben

Thanks for that Fred,. was just about to ask the question..

Hi John and Fred,

Thank you for the suggestions on the ER25 chuck and collets. How important is it what the thread of the drawbar is? Is it lathe dependant or it does not matter which one? I have seen M10 and 3/8-16 for the ER25 MT2 chucks.

My VL100 arrived yesterday. Carried it up to my workshop from the house and unpacked it. My back is still playing up, but it is on the improve. Touch wood, I will be ok by the weekend to set the lathe up. I yet to make a decision where exactly locate it in my workshop.

Regards
Andy

[quote=aak;863563

Thank you for the suggestions on the ER25 chuck and collets. How important is it what the thread of the drawbar is? Is it lathe dependant or it does not matter which one? I have seen M10 and 3/8-16 for the ER25 MT2 chucks.

[/quote]

Doesn't matter at all, either will do, as long as you get the correct bolt to use as a drawbar.

Originally Posted by Big Shed

Doesn't matter at all, either will do, as long as you get the correct bolt to use as a drawbar.

Hi Fred,

Thank you, I think I now understand why you said this in the other thread "The chuck takes a M10 drawbar, so I bought some M10 threaded rod (couldn't get a 235mm M10 bolt). ".

You have M10 thread on your ER25 MT2 chuck and needed a 235mm bolt to go through your lathe's head stock. Consequently I would need to check my lathe to see how long bolt I would need to use and buy one of them, so I could turn "without turning between centres". If that is the right expression. Sorry, I am not sure how else I should word this. That is the item turned would only be held/supported by the chuck. Right or wrong?

Regards
Andy

No, sorry wrong. One end of the mandrel goes in to the collet in the chuck. The other end of the mandrel is still supported by the live centre in the tail stock. Theoretically you don't need the drawbar to hold the collet chuck in, as the live centre in the tail stock holds it in the headstock anyway, but I am a belts and braces man. Besides that I also use the collet chuck at times for other things, such as closed end pens, and the closed end pen mandrel is not supported by the live centre in the tail stock (for obvious reasons, if itt was you couldn't turn the closed end, could you?)

Originally Posted by Big Shed

No, sorry wrong. One end of the mandrel goes in to the collet in the chuck. The other end of the mandrel is still supported by the live centre in the tail stock. Theoretically you don't need the drawbar to hold the collet chuck in, as the live centre in the tail stock holds it in the headstock anyway, but I am a belts and braces man. Besides that I also use the collet chuck at times for other things, such as closed end pens, and the closed end pen mandrel is not supported by the live centre in the tail stock (for obvious reasons, if itt was you couldn't turn the closed end, could you?)

Fred I think there is a misunderstanding. Maybe it is my English. Let me have another go.

I understand that you can use the ER25 MT2 chuck in the headstock and support the pen mandrel's one end in the chuck and other end of the mandrel with the live centre that is in the tail stock. That would be called turning between centres. Right?

I was trying to say that if you were to turn without using the tailstock then you need to use the drawbar with the ER25 MT2 chuck. I assumed that there is a thread cut into the end of the MT2 that would be 10mm (or 3/8-16), hence the need for the appropriate length of the 10mm (or 3/8-16) bolt. If you did not have the drawbar the chuck could fall out of the headstock during turning.

I understand what a close end pen means and that you could not do such a turning by supporting it with the tailstock.

Sorry I have no practical experience so I just try to imagine this in my head.

Regards
Andy

Originally Posted by aak

Fred I think there is a misunderstanding. Maybe it is my English. Let me have another go.

I understand that you can use the ER25 MT2 chuck in the headstock and support the pen mandrel's one end in the chuck and other end of the mandrel with the live centre that is in the tail stock. That would be called turning between centres. Right?

I was trying to say that if you were to turn without using the tailstock then you need to use the drawbar with the ER25 MT2 chuck. I assumed that there is a thread cut into the end of the MT2 that would be 10mm (or 3/8-16), hence the need for the appropriate length of the 10mm (or 3/8-16) bolt. If you did not have the drawbar the chuck could fall out of the headstock during turning.

I understand what a close end pen means and that you could not do such a turning by supporting it with the tailstock.

Sorry I have no practical experience so I just try to imagine this in my head.

Regards
Andy

Andy, you're confusing 2 different issues here. The drawbar is used solely to keep the MT mandrel in the head stock, in fact my collet chuck is such a good fit in the MT2 head stock that I could probably use it without the drawbar.

The reason I am saying you would still need to use the tail stock to support the mandrel is to stop sideways deflection of the mandrel as you are turning.

As you say, at this stage you have no practical experience, some of these things will become a lot clearer once you get your hands dirty on the lathe, and a nice lathe it is that you have acquired.