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2nd May 2017, 08:27 PM #16SENIOR MEMBER
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A good post Trav.
I have the mitre express as well and love it but not only did I have to square up the gauge to the fence, I had to shim it square to the table top. You would think that Incra products would be better than that. Anyway, I'm glad you liked the dial indicator method. Once you've used this method for squaring fences you'll never use the 5 cut method again.
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3rd May 2017, 12:14 PM #17SENIOR MEMBER
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Hi all,
after reading this post I think that the emphasis should be on the outcomes rather than the process.
The use of any alignment system which uses dial indicators is great, or the 5 cut method in combo is also proven ..... BUT it is the output that is important
Rather than basing outcomes through aligning the movement of a sliding mitre gauge in one slot to a static dial indicator in the other (this method assumes that mitre slots are perfectly aligned) it would be helpful to conduct outcome trials using the Incra mitre gauge settings.
So, how about taking a piece of 300mm square mdf and cutting it into pie segments, say 9 or more, using the incra gauge and fitting it all back together. This is a true test for accuracy of cut ... and no gaps will be the confirmation of calibration.
To cut the test pie you will need to mark the top side of the square, put a stop block on the mitre gauge and cut them on just one side of the fence, and always top side up.
Looking fwd to pics of the results
regards
Rob
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3rd May 2017, 01:56 PM #18GOLD MEMBER
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I have a question, when did the mitre slot get aligned to the blade in all this?
CHRIS
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3rd May 2017, 05:50 PM #19
I check mine every Monday morning as part of my clean-align-sharpen-organise for the week ahead.
Its rarely out (why! why! why! don't cabinet table saws have a simple two-bolt to align system????)
Im keen to try this new method, it looks pretty good.
Re Tahlee #17 post (second para) it doesnt matter if the mitres are aligned or not. One only uses the left one in 99% of the cases (atleast, I do). The dial is simply fixed somewhere (anywhere) on the table. Its completely static in the procedure.
Im making some segmented bowls this week (later) so it will be an excellent test.
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3rd May 2017, 06:48 PM #20SENIOR MEMBER
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Sorry, but I do not share your observation
I swap my mitre slots when using the Incra gauge so that the blade is always on the top side of the material ... pushing down on the fence.
Others may not do this ... but I do and I do find it gives a better result .. if one of the mitre slot and Incra gives slightly off the degree ... by switching sides of the mitre slot and Incra gauge will have a perfectly compensating error.
Anyway ... that's how I do it ... and you are absolutely correct ....it does mean that the two slots need to be pefect6ly parallel.
The 5 cut method and the use of a dial indicator on one mitre slot is only is half of the setup when using an Incra mitre ... you need to prove both slots are exactly parallel for the correct use if the Incra mitre gauge system.
Regardfs
Rob
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3rd May 2017, 07:32 PM #21
If you've made a sled, this would show they aren't parallel? Mine certainly are and it's a cheap cabinet saw of indifferent quality (but it is good to use, but a Harvey or Sawstop it ain't!).
If they weren't parallel, the sled would bind.
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3rd May 2017, 10:23 PM #22SENIOR MEMBER
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Yes but it is a sound process that leads to good outcomes. If you don't have a good process you want have good outcomes. Every day when I crosscut I check the cut with a digital protractor and engineers square and it is always spot on. Also a basic frame fits perfectly also indicating squareness. This shows me that the process is right and the the dial indicator method is more than a viable alternative to the five cut method, all done without one cut. I started this thread to show people that alternative. I wanted to focus on the process not how to align/check the blade with the slots or any discussion of poorly aligned saws. Have another look at the title of this thread.
Also I only use the left hand mitre slot with the incra gauge and mitre express. I also have a sled(s) with 2 runners and as woodpixel said, the sled would bind if both slots aren't parallel. That sled was tested on both sides of the fence using the dial indicator method and the result was great.
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4th May 2017, 01:27 AM #23SENIOR MEMBER
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Hi Barri ... I totally agree that the use of a dial indicator and square is far superior to an alignment using a square against the blade or the 5 cut method to adjust the gauge's fence ... been using the dial method for a fair while now.
I do a fair deal of decorative mouldings using the Incra. It is not feasible for me to have the second cut done using the LHS mitre track as the sloping decorative side would then be contacting the table .... and the cut would be a compound angle. So I use both LHS and RHS mitre slots quite often.
Cutting a multisided pattern is indeed the method for proving the Incra mitre gauge on INCRA's own website ...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzV-o4_kacc
The problem with that video is that it does not actually give one the solution to the problem disclosed in the video.
Regards
Rob
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4th May 2017, 10:41 AM #24Intermediate Member
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I guess the process used to setup or calibrate anything will only be validated by the results achieved whereby those results are of an acceptable level to the individual woodworker. Everyone has there own ideas and methods which is great and in some instances different methods may arrive at the same outcome. It also depends on the nature of the work being completed and for me, I found this method (so far) to be very effective and I'd like to say thanks to Barri for sharing.
I did, however, think about Tahlee's method to check such accuracy by completing a 9 or-so sided work piece which I haven't yet done but will do to see how tight the mitres are. I agree that this next step will prove how accurate the calibration has been.
I only cut on the right hand side of the blade i.e. using the right mitre slot which means I have to sometime remove my rip fence but I like the additional table top support. Again, personal choice. I am no pro by any stretch of the imagination but my thinking is the same as Woodpixels regrading slot parallelism. I don't need both to be perfect as the dial indicator is fixed at a given point of the saw. The squareness of my fence to the line of travel within the other slot should tell me how far off I am as i pass through the dial indicator.
My saw blade is just under .002 from front to back in the LH slot so, if anything, my kerf would be a fraction wider. It shouldn't determine if my workpiece comes out perfectly square. Unless I have this all wrong?
One thing I need do stop doing is obsess over the readings on my measurements and actually enjoy the things I bought these tools for. If I can find a suitable method that gets me making sawdust quicker then I will certainly give it a go.
Cheers,
Trav.
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8th May 2017, 10:42 AM #25Intermediate Member
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So I tried Tahless's advice on doing a 5 sided pentagon. I did notice that two of the pieces were not producing a tight fit on the inside of the join. Obviously I was putting to much expectation on getting perfect results straight up from initial 90 degree tests.
I will acknowledge that there still is the smallest amount of play in the mitre express setup without really cranking up the cams on the mitre bar. Even applying pressure on the outermost part of the fence registers a change on the dial indicator which is why it is important to lock it down when set. Even technique can register a small difference in results doing the 5 cut test and check which i also found. I just don't want to have to try and check accuracy everything I pick an angle or move back to zero degrees.
My question is now for those more experienced than myself. How do I now make minute changes to the incra HD without spending ages going backwards and forwards. Given I am in the "ballpark" I am reluctant to loosen the 4 screws that hold the fence to the protractor head as I could be starting all over again. Do I try and paper shim behind the first screw or fourth screw and adjust the fence angle as opposed to the bracket fixed to protractor head the to see if this make improve results negative or positive? I am not sure how to gauge the error with the results I am getting with the pentagon and the best approach to fixing it.
Cheers Trav
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8th May 2017, 05:10 PM #26SENIOR MEMBER
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Hi Trav,
Thanks for sharing your trial results ... If the gap is on the inside position then it means that your mitre is set to less than 45 degrees as the combined angle is less than 90 (I think that's right) ...
I don't regard my Incra as 100% accurate in its90 degree angle settings I have set it at..... but I do have faith in the laser cut graduations ... and I do get as close to perfect as can be expected by
1) Using a 25mm MDF backing board screwed to the Incra fence to try to avoid fence flex .. I need to change it's position every few runs .. it also helps align the cuts and saves tearout.
2) clamping the pieces securely and using an angled stop block
3) using the post handle to drive the gauge forward every time ... trying to avoid fence flex issues ... and going all the way through the blade (dont stop before the nearside of the cut passes through the farside edge of the blade)
and importantly ...
4 ) doing the A end cuts on using the LHS mitre slot ... and the RHS mitre slot for the B end cuts
Changing from LHS to RHS mitre slots mean that the cut compensates for discrepancy in settings. Just cut all the A ends .. then do the B ends.
As I said in the earlier post ... the Incra video shows how to detect any inaccuracy ... but doesn't say how to fix them ...
Your suggestions for shims sounds like the way forward .. if you prefer not to use both mitre slots
Regards
Rob
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8th May 2017, 05:40 PM #27
I remember reading about this a few years ago, never done it though, but this PDF which came with the thing seems to be still current: http://www.incra.com/manuals/miter1000hd_manual.pdf and perhaps http://www.incra.com/manuals/MiterV27_manual_new.pdf for fences.
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8th May 2017, 05:46 PM #28Intermediate Member
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Hey Rob,
Thanks for taking the time to provide some guidance. I will take on board your suggestions and test run a few more cuts. One thing that I know I did wrong was not completing a pass as you recommend in point 3 when cutting the test pieces. When doing the perpendicular cuts during the 5 cut method I did complete a full pass so this error comes down to lack of understanding. Is this the problem? maybe not but I will be definitely be looking at my technique.
I was getting a bit lost because of my initial (successful) results with the gauge set at 0 and expected the mitres to come out nice and tight. I tend to agree with you second comment regarding accuracy and I have found that the smallest change be it hand position, stance at the table saw or movement during a cut can affect results and render them inconsistent (to a certain degree obviously). I will also try to tighten the mitre express in the mitre slot without compromising ease of movement even though when all three cams are engaged within the TS mitre slot if feels pretty rigid.
At this stage, changing between both mitre slots would be a bit of a pain but I won't completely discount that as a fix.
When I get some time, i will provide some feedback for the benefit of anyone else interested.
Thanks again mate for the feedback.
Trav.
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8th May 2017, 06:33 PM #29SENIOR MEMBER
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Here is the gospel according to Incra ... Trav ... You were spot on ....The method used to join the fence-mounting bracket to the protractor head makes it easy to fine-tune the fence perfectly perpendicular to your tabletop. To adjust, loosen the (4) socket head screws that secure the bracket and
slide a paper shim between the bracket and the underside of the protractor head. Placing the shim behind the screws
will increase the angle. Placing the shim in front of the screws will decrease the angle.
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24th May 2017, 09:37 AM #30SENIOR MEMBER
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A recent video showing this method for aligning fences. He explains it very well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdXTtTnJAvk&t=65s
I'm very much a convert.
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