Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 32
  1. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    clarence
    Posts
    16

    Default

    WOFTAM i know, I am only asking about the "Workmanship" does it meet the relevant Australian Standards or CODE
    Quote Originally Posted by aldav View Post
    Whoo, that's not much of a welcome, is it! C'mon forum members.
    Obviously you're in the cyclone belt, there's a lot of strapping holding that roof and frame together. Yes, some of the work looks pretty ordinary, but house framing isn't fine woodwork. Your frame doesn't look too different to a lot of what I've seen over the years. The 'permanent' bows in the trusses that you've pictured are not major and become pretty inconsequential once the roof is loaded. Tile or sheet roof?
    I'm afraid Kuffy's right, there was a time when your concerns could have been rectified, but unless there are post construction problems that can be put down to the 'poor workmanship' I suspect you've done your dash. In my experience the only houses that are built 'properly' are builders own houses.
    Not much consolation I know.

  2. # ADS
    Google Adsense Advertisement
    Join Date
    Always
    Location
    Advertising world
    Posts
    Many





     
  3. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    clarence
    Posts
    16

    Default

    I can not find a Building Inspector in my area who is willing to help
    Quote Originally Posted by Wimmera Jack View Post
    Totally agree Aaron. That is disgraceful work. You need some help to sort that kind of work out.
    Chase it up with a decent building inspector.

    Regards.

    John.

  4. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    clarence
    Posts
    16

    Default

    The Builder knows all about it, the builder uses subcontractors.Looks like I got the "B Team" .Pay peanuts you get monkeys.
    Quote Originally Posted by rwbuild View Post
    That is some of the worst workmanship I have seen on a new house in many years.
    I would make up a duplicate file with photos, registered mail to builder with covering letter and also a copy to Fair Trading.

  5. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    clarence
    Posts
    16

    Default

    Funny you mention Plumbing.LOL. One Toilet waste pipe ended up under the bottom plate. I had the Builder redesign the layout rather than cut up the concrete
    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    The OP already has his Certificate of Occupancy implying that the building is finished, inside and out.

    Perhaps it's now too late to "complain" about the standard of workmanship?

    Rectification of substantive defects would likely require extensive stripping of finished surfaces. And I'm not sure how many of the defects would classify as "substantive" as opposed to "minor" or "non-structural" or "cosmetic".


    But I agree, some of that plumbing looks less than ordinary.

  6. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    tasmania
    Age
    55
    Posts
    114

    Default

    In Tassie the dept of justice has a guide to standards and tolerances which gives an idea of what level of workmanship is considered ok or a defect. I suspect nsw would have a similar guide. I work for builder down here and when we have clients who continually complain about trivial issues which have no impact on the end result or structural integrity of the home the supervisor generally starts to ignore emails and complaints from these clients and tend to rush the remainder of the build to hand the house over so they don't have to deal with them anymore. In my opinion most of the issues you have posted photos of here are whilst not looking great ,do the job they are intended to do.

  7. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Langwarrin
    Age
    41
    Posts
    952

    Default

    Ok, now I think I understand where you are coming from. You're asking why/how can someone do a job that appears to be very poorly executed, and no one pull them up to say it's wrong?

    This would be my take (I am a carpenter, and consider myself 'competant' in the scale of things - though others may argue)

    The Australian standards/engineer may require a cyclone tie over a girder truss. It will state that installation requires 6 X (40 X 3.15mm) timber connecting clouts on either side of the truss running down the stud below.

    Once these parameters are met, the inspector will tick it off as passed. It doesn't say that the tie should be cut off after the 6 nails, or be installed nice and straight.
    This falls on the carpenter to take pride in his work.

    Whilst walking through a house at frame stage, noggins not being level, 'misplaced' nails not being pulled put, wires not clipped adequately are all signs of tradesmen who I consider a little careless, and not take pride in their work. It's not things that will raise red flags as far as a finished or 'passed' frame but it looks messy.

    I have a tendency to occasionally have a Friday afternoon moment and 'just get it done' but usually come Monday morning I'll shoot back and finish it to my standards.

    Another point I'll make is on price point. I have only worked for a few semi volume builders (40 - 100 homes per year) and this is what I found with them. They set a price for you to get the job done, so you find the best way to get it done to that price. I found that whilst there was enough money in done aspects of their building, other parts were down right impossible to make money on.
    A frame you would errect would get you paid well for the week, but then filling in a gable end with shingles would give you $50 and take 7 hours (to a standard I was happy with). So for this reason a lot of volume builders will use carpenters who will be a qualified guy using about 3 apprentices to get the job done - and he will still be running like mad to get the job done and turn a very small profit.

    This is where the downward spiral occurs. His apprentices pick up on 'shortcuts' which whilst won't be against building code - look messy . For instance using a clout gun to shoot triple grips or cyclone ties down.

    Give an apprentice a clout gun, watch his eyes light up and he will happily nail 30 nails into a tie that required 6. They won't be in a neat line because he is moving as fast as he can 'to impress his boss' and then eventually he will teach his apprentices the same practice.

    I am lucky/respect myself enough that I no longer work for builders who are only in it for the bottom line (we are all working to stay alive but some builders will pick one trade over another to save a few hundred dollars regardless of workmanship) but if it came to being able to feed my family or not - then I would head back into the new estates (unhappily) and be forced to drop my standards (a little) in order to survive.

    I hope this very long post makes some sort of sense and helps with your original question of 'workmanship'. It's the sort of thing I would be happy to discuss over a drink and would possibly be able to address the questions better as I do waffle on a bit, and sound a little 'ranty'

    I understand your concerns as you invest a lot of money into a new home, and understandably just want it 'right' and in my experience with Victorian building inspectors, if something isn't to code it will be very quickly picked up and have to be rectified. If you find your concerns are falling on deaf ears then I would take 'rwbuild's advice if you're wanting to take this further. He has many more years of experience in the game than I.

    Cheers
    Gab
    "All the gear and no idea"

  8. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Canberra, Australia
    Posts
    369

    Default

    A difficult but fair question; it seems "sloppy but functional" is the minimum acceptable criteria, and new construction seems at least down this way seems to be pushing their luck down the lower end of the spectrum ... and it's not just cosmetic, but actually results in problems a few years after occupancy with leaks, things falling apart, and of course it's harder to do any work when it hasn't been designed for ease of maintenance (just like software).

  9. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    used to live in Sydney, now it's Canada
    Age
    65
    Posts
    11,538

    Default

    Gabriel has nailed it.

    The Australian Standards / BCA says what should or must happen. Provided that the requirements are met, it is then up to interpretation as to what is "normal tradesman practice".

    As a rule, standards don't say a word about cosmetic appearance, they are only concerned with specifying that A should be tied to B using a connection that performs according to C.
    regards from Canada

    ian

  10. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Perth
    Age
    41
    Posts
    45

    Default

    If it were me, and complaining was getting me nowhere, I'd try and negotiate a discount, buy a hammer, and finish the job myself.

    Taking photos is good, and filing correspondence is also a good idea. If anything happens later, you have evidence that you had concerns, they were raised, and no action was taken. In the event of an incident, you may have a case for negligent issuance of the CO.

    But seriously, a few hours with the hammer would be less effort in the long run, and a much more effective vector to release frustration and resolve the issue than complaints and litigation.

  11. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Melbourne S.E Burbs
    Posts
    476

    Default

    I'd be peeved as well if this was my place.You obviously have half a clue as you've been able to pick up on this stuff, I'm wondering why it wasn't addressed on the spot? Unless you've had an independent report done?

    Short answer is that codes & standards deal in absolutes and quality doesn't really enter the equation. I've never seen a frame stage inspector rock up to site with a spirit level to check if everything is level or plumb!



    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    His apprentices pick up on 'shortcuts' which whilst won't be against building code - look messy . For instance using a clout gun to shoot triple grips or cyclone ties down.
    Err, this is against building code mate. The relevant Australian Standard (AS 1684.4—2010 Residential timber-framed construction) says; "9.2.7 Framing anchor and strap nails All nails used for framing anchor and straps shall be corrosion protected flat-head connector nails. Clout shall not be used for this purpose."


    I know that in practice, this particular shortcut gets passed all the time, but it shouldn't..........

  12. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    tasmania
    Age
    55
    Posts
    114

    Default Frames and Trusses Workmanship

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin View Post
    I'd be peeved as well if this was my place.You obviously have half a clue as you've been able to pick up on this stuff, I'm wondering why it wasn't addressed on the spot? Unless you've had an independent report done?

    Short answer is that codes & standards deal in absolutes and quality doesn't really enter the equation. I've never seen a frame stage inspector rock up to site with a spirit level to check if everything is level or plumb!





    Err, this is against building code mate. The relevant Australian Standard (AS 1684.4—2010 Residential timber-framed construction) says; "9.2.7 Framing anchor and strap nails All nails used for framing anchor and straps shall be corrosion protected flat-head connector nails. Clout shall not be used for this purpose."


    I know that in practice, this particular shortcut gets passed all the time, but it shouldn't..........
    Not correct, according to the pryda installation manual machine driven nails( these are hardened coil nails ,not clouts) are permitted to be used on cyclone straps and triple grips except Queensland where only hand driven connector nails may be used on triple grips. There are guidelines to be followed for the nailing however and it's these that are rarely followed by chippies or picked up by inspectors.

  13. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Langwarrin
    Age
    41
    Posts
    952

    Default

    Thanks Jimfish, you beat me to it. I can't find somewhere in the box of coil clouts saying 'meets standard 1684.4' but the Pryda website states certain coil clouts which are acceptable. Whilst Pryda may only be a company whose interests lie in construction, I believe they would be reputable enough that their installation guides would be correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin View Post

    I know that in practice, this particular shortcut gets passed all the time, but it shouldn't..........
    I was picked up on this one once as an apprentice..... Was only a small 'lean-to' so wasn't hard to rectify and have since always used timber connector clouts. The difference being that a timber connector clouts is produced from a single piece of metal where the more traditional/cheaper clout has a tack welded head. I am not sure if the clouts from a clout gun are deemed timber connector clouts. This is another reason I tend only use them for attaching cladding.

    Justin, i was only using this as an example of how Australian standards and general work practices may be satisfied but can be interpreted in different ways.

    If you wanted to get I to the Nitty gritty of what's acceptable compared to what should be done I believe all timber framing should be carried out with 90mm nails where 90% of frames are put together using 75mm nails.

    Once again this is just what I have heard around the traps and haven't bothered looking it up for myself as I don't wish to explain to my builders why they're paying $100's more for a frame so I can supply longer nails.

    I'm sure you could look up the code to correct me on this as well.

    I was just answering the op to the best of my ability in hope he could understand why his house may be acceptable by standards, but not to his standard. Most inspectors I have come across are nice guys and quite diligent in their jobs so most unnaceptanle practices are picked up quite quickly
    "All the gear and no idea"

  14. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    tasmania
    Age
    55
    Posts
    114

    Default

    Gabriel , my understanding is 45mm plates need to be nailed with 90mm nails but 35 mm plates are fine with 75s. There are many variations in building that at first glance may appear to contravene the standards such as down here we frame mainly with f17 hardwood. Generally stud ties are to be installed at 900 cts to meet as 1684 but in hardwood these spacing can be doubled to 1800 cts. I don't know 1684 from top to bottom but instead rely on our certifier to give me the information I require. Most of which is supplied with our plans in the form of extracts from the building code or manufacturers installation instructions.
    I would love to see pics of the completed house as I'm assuming the op is happy with the finish as there's no pics of poorly installed doors or gaps in arch or skirts.

  15. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    NZ
    Posts
    96

    Default

    Send a photo of that roof plane brace to pryda, mi-tek and ask if it meets their installation guidelines. For some people, meeting the building code is the be all and end all. For others it's just the starting point. That applies to builders as well as those who pay them and decide what they are willing to pay for.

  16. #30
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Melbourne S.E Burbs
    Posts
    476

    Default

    I think we're in fervent agreement here fellas, what I was pointing out was that standard clouts can't be used on straps & triples, connector nails must be. By gun or hand isn't an issue - I've certainly shot them on with a gun myself, but using a PPN gun that fired the proper connector nails.

    Just wondering what the O.P want to achieve out of this, given that the C of O is already done?

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Saw Handle Workmanship.
    By planemaker in forum Saws- handmade
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 2nd Apr 2015, 07:27 PM
  2. anyone build their own trusses before?
    By Jovian in forum FURNITURE, JOINERY, CABINETMAKING - formerly BIG STUFF
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 27th Jun 2013, 12:28 AM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 8th Aug 2012, 09:52 PM
  4. Amazing workmanship/craftsmanship
    By wheelinround in forum Links to: INSPIRATIONAL WEB SITES
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 21st Nov 2008, 04:16 PM
  5. Shonky workmanship
    By Wongo in forum PLUMBING, ELECTRICAL, HEATING, COOLING, etc
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 27th Feb 2006, 10:10 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •