Thread: Roof framing standards - new house

I would be asking for the design engineer to document a detail and that it is satisfactory. As a building surveyor and inspector in vic (we all use the same standards and codes auswide) I would not accept this. Just as you would not allow a UB to be supported on single skin brickwork. It is not even fixed. You could not even support 1 bearer taking floor loads like this.

I think the big problem with perth is that no one is qualified in what they are doing, from the tradesman especially the roofies (that are probably on roofies ie rohyponol) to site supervisors to the building surveyors.

I think those angle props have been put the for lateral restraint but tie down wise, I doubt it has been considered.

I can not see why it has to be done like that anyway, there are better and cheaper ways. Anyway I can see a whole big wave of claims aginst builders in the next 10 years if this is the type of thing that is acceptable these days in perth.

At the risk of sounding like a ditsy female, (but who really wants to understand this), what is that 'construction' supposed to do/achieve.

I am a little confused, so if someone could explain it to me, it would be appreciated.

(sorry, i am unable to contribute to your query Arc, but I am definitely interested.)

The Universal beam allows for a greater span of the ceiling once the hangers are beyond their structural span. The universal beam takes the hangers which stop ceiling joists sagging.The UB is also propped or tomed off to take the ridge and under purlins to increase their structural integrity.

If anything else was done a steel column would be placed from the top of the wall to the UB. If the beam is checked in by hangers and propped to under purlins the weight and the checked in hangers wont let it go anywhere.

What the max height solids can be used is really a good question but solids have been used to prop UBs for ever and a day in WA. Check just about any home and you will find solid bricks are used to prop UBs to the hanger height usually on solid on edge.

I haven't been back over to see if any images of the UB for what the purpose the UB serves?

As a building surveyor and inspector in vic (we all use the same standards and codes auswide) I would not accept this. Just as you would not allow a UB to be supported on single skin brickwork. It is not even fixed. You could not even support 1 bearer taking floor loads like this.

This is done on 99% of houses in Western Australia.

Arc/Mephis have indicated it is supporting a ridge board which i would find it hard to believe, it appears you have roof trusses so why would you need something to support a ridge board? The roof truss design anyway you obviously use a steel beam in places where timber wont span the distance given the load it is required to carry.

The roof is a stick roof, not truss. It sounds like the UB has a prop which prevents the ridge sagging. A wider area photo will more than likely demonstrate that the UB does more than just provide a prop to the ridge.

Theres a LVL next to the UB so I suspect there is a bulkhead or similar not far away but cant be seen by the image supplied.

I agree with thebuildsurveyer. The acid test is to get the builder, roof carpenter, engineer etc to sign off on the detail.

If they won't then it is not acceptable.

As a carpenter of 30+ yrs I have never left a beam, timber or steel, on loose supports or not tied down.

Curiosity killed the cat, but i am taking the risk and getting in my roof on the weekend to have a look (can't help myself...).

Guess I am one of these annoying people who need to know 'why?' with everything.

Hubby keeps telling me 'too much knowledge can be dangerous' (especially for a female )

Curiosity killed the cat, but i am taking the risk and getting in my roof on the weekend to have a look (can't help myself...).

Guess I am one of these annoying people who need to know 'why?' with everything.

Take a camera then take a picture of the end of the UB. What state are you in? You have brick walls?
The brick elevates the UB to hanger height to allow check in just above the ceiling joists..

Originally Posted by autogenous

Take a camera then take a picture of the end of the UB. What state are you in? You have brick walls?
The brick elevates the UB to hanger height to allow check in just above the ceiling joists..

Will do!
Western Australia (formerly NSW & VIC).
Double brick walls.
Just bought the house last October. It's about seven years old, but we have found some very interesting 'building processes' whilst we have been renovating.
Will take the pictures and get back to you (not at home right now).
cheers

So in perth it seems that its perfectly acceptable to stack bricks on a timber top plate. A collegue of mine worked in perth for a while and he said anything goes, so I guess he was right. I think you should email the relevant authorities (who control building legislation) for an opinion. They need to bring in mandatory building inspections in perth. If that brickwork gets knocked by someone the beam might drop the whole cieling. I think you would struggle to find a strucural engineer that would draw up a detail showing 4 unmortared bricks stacked on a top plate supporting anything (especially a UB) and then certify it. Let us know what happens.

I would be asking for the design engineer to document a detail and that it is satisfactory. As a building surveyor and inspector in vic (we all use the same standards and codes auswide) I would not accept this. Just as you would not allow a UB to be supported on single skin brickwork. It is not even fixed. You could not even support 1 bearer taking floor loads like this.

Being a building surveyor in your professional opinion what would you do in this situation?

What have you seen done in the past in Victoria that is better than this?

What do they do in Victoria to support UB at that particular height?

So in perth it seems that its perfectly acceptable to stack bricks on a timber top plate. A collegue of mine worked in perth for a while and he said anything goes, so I guess he was right.

Damn those Jerry builders!
Who is the builder Arc?

In vic if there was no details on the plans I would ask them to justify it via engineer, I have never seen a situation like that, however i would imagine a short steel column welded to some type of steel plate that is fixed to the top of the double skin brickwork with some chem set bolts or a couple of rods extending up through the cavity. At the very minimum cut out the timber top plate, then use double brickwork instead of single skin and strap over the ub with hoop iron, the hoop iron should extend down to the into the wall cavity. Or the bove method with a couple of threaded 12mm rods. Easy

i work in sydney when we put a UB in a ceiling we pack it off the brickwork using 100mm oregon and 2/90 X 45 pine plates to pack it up... if its a stud wall same thing plus extra studs.. just the way its done over here. il ask our engineer if he would pass the frame if we had the beams packed on loose bricks...

Originally Posted by madrat

Hubby keeps telling me 'too much knowledge can be dangerous' (especially for a female )

And you actually let him say that without a slap I must be a less saintly female then you madrat.

PS Arc..I would have looked up and thought when I saw that. I hope some of your concerns have been answered.

There was an article I think linked from this forum about gutters not being made to Australian Standards, yet the majority of homes since the early 90's are using these gutters. Just because it's considered normal practice does not make it right.

The clincher is whats at the other end and what hangers and toms come off the steel?

Still waiting on further photos of the centre and other end?

Judging by the diagram drawn by Arc the UB sits on 2 internal single brick walls with stacks of 4 solids at either end?

If it was stud frame there would be a steel column floor to UB not bricks.

The builder has supplied the steel without any modifications. The chippie has to make do with whats supplied. Hes not going to argue with the builder who supplies him the work. Its up to the licensed builder to say whether its ok or he will modify it.

Anything over 450mm then they maybe a need to put in a steel column to the plate but that isn't going to stop lateral roll as much as the 230mm wide solids and struts either side.

An LVL beam prop will shrink, steel expands and contracts which cracks ceilings.
Bricks in that number don't expand and contact to the same extent under heat.

"If" anything more there would be a form of collar tie to the struts.