Thread: Better to use Bearer and Joists or Slab?

I have heard of people building their own by doing it as the site manager. You get plans made up then get the quotes be on site to keep everyone moving, keep things up to spec and be able to give them immediate answers when things don't go together the way they were intended.

In between times you can get your hands dirty being the offsider to various tradies as they work get the job done sooner and make a saving that way.

That way you are replacing the most expensive guy on the job the one who does the organising and clips the ticket. Remember however there are council regulations approvals and so on, building standards to be satisfied so if you want the job you will need to know about these things.

Studley

Originally Posted by pawnhead

No offense, but it looks like you really don't know that much about building, so the only reason you'd build yourself would be the satisfaction. You certainly won't save any money over a project home and you could end up spending a LOT more.

Yep, 100% true. I have not worked or had involvement in the industry at all, so I don't have experience with building. Hence the learning curve will be very very steep, and I am acutely aware of that. I have absolutely no doubt that I could achieve it with enough time, effort and motivation, under budget, but from the experience of others here, it seems that it was not worth it for most. Which is fine by me. I'm more than happy to have a builder build my house....But it certainly won't stop me really having a really good look at the potential feasibility of owner building.

Thanks for the advice though pawnhead.

You know to save a few bucks you could always look at doing the house to lock up and then finishing it yourself. Doing the plasterboard painting other odds and sods.

Doing a reno might be a better way to get started though all depending what you want.

Studley

Originally Posted by Art Martin

I have absolutely no doubt that I could achieve it with enough time, effort and motivation, under budget

Yes, you probably could if you put the time in to organise it and also do a lot of the work, but even then, whether it would be cheaper than a project home is doubtful. Their project managers typically handle between ten and thirty projects at a time, and they can have them up in three months or less. They spend very little time on site. Usually no more than an hour a week/fortnight to inspect progress and authorise payments. They organise all the trades from their office, and the tradesman work cheap and without supervision because they've done the same job a hundred times, so there's never usually any problems to sort out. And as I've said they get bulk discount on materials. When the job is ready, they press a button on their computer and the tiles/bricks/trusses/whatever gets delivered. No mucking around calculating quantities, getting quotes etc.
It's going to take you a lot more than three months full time, and you're going to pay more for your tradesman and materials.

Originally Posted by Art Martin

I have not worked or had involvement in the industry at all, so I don't have experience with building. Hence the learning curve will be very very steep, and I am acutely aware of that. I have absolutely no doubt that I could achieve it with enough time, effort and motivation, under budget, but from the experience of others here, it seems that it was not worth it for most.

Have you ever been or spent significant time with a project manager? A good one can anticipate when things might go wrong and step in to make sure they don't.
one small example, you may be 10 weeks away from tiling the bathroom, but you need the floor and wall tiles NOW so that the tiler knows what product he is quoting on.

as to my earlier comment re projec builderrs and standard modules. I was so much refering to the sizes of plaster board sheets, but to floor plans and wall layouts. In the last few project homes I've looked at it's been obvious that the rooms (or the floor plans) are "modules" that are put together a bit like lego blocks to make the house. the builder can make 40 walls exactly the same, send them to 5 separate sites to make into 5 "different" houses.


ian

Art,
I think you're underestimating how much is involved in building a house.
Are you employed at the moment? Assuming that it will take you 18 months to build your house rather than 6 months for a builder (this is being optimistic for the OB and pessimistic for the builder) Do you think that the cost of having your house built by a pro will be greater than:

Your income for 18 months + rental accomodation for 12 months + interest on loan for 12 months + insurances for 12 months + (cost of tools and equipment - 20% realised on sale after use) + site toilet rental and service for 18 months + casual labour hire + wrokcover for labourer + cost of mobile phone usage to run job from site + cost of extra home phone usage + purchase of fax machine + scaffolding hire + jobsite barrier hire/purchase + hire of specialised equipment etc etc etc.

Like I said before Time = Money If a pro and his offsider can stand a roof full of trusses in half a day using a crane then it might be about:

Crane hire: 4 hrs @ $150 p/h + 2 hrs travel = $900 (just a guess, few years since I hired one)
Labour: Tradesman 4 hrs @ $45 p/h + TA @ $30 p/h = $300

Total = $1200

Your cost:

Crane Hire: Day 1: 8 hrs + 2 hrs travel, day 2: 2 Hrs + 2 hrs travel = $2100

Labour TA 10 hrs @ $30 p/h = $300

Total = $2400, without factoring in your loss of income.
If you take home $1000 per week then you can add a loss of $250, meaning that today's lesson, "standing trusses 101" has just cost you $1450.:eek:

Of course these are just guesstimates as I've no idea of the size and span of your roof, site access, local crane hire costs and travel distances etc etc. However the only way your really going to learn how to stand a bunch of trusses is to do it. You may be able to read about it but you'll still be figuring out the nuts and bolts of how to do it while the meter on the crane is running. When you work in the industry you learn how to sequence a procedure by working under someone else, and you learn without really being aware of it. You will be learning under the gun.

If you're dead set on building your own place I suggest you get a job as a labourer and work up to being an assistant to a builder. After two years or so you will have picked up a lot of knowledge and skills which will help you build your own place. Of course you'll have to factor in the reduction of wages for two years as part of the learning costs.

Mick

Have just been through this process myself. I was lucky to have some relatives that were prepared to help either for free or very cheaply. I had several thousand bricks laid for nix. My Dad is a plumber. An uncle took on the role of foreman and lead chippy for peanuts. We hired another chippy at the going rate. My brother in law did all our welding and sheetmetal work.

We paid full price for the sparky, the roofer, the plasterers and concretors. We had 20% off fixings, 10% off materials and 5% off tools at the local Mitre 10. I got 10% off bathroom fittings, tiles and paint through a mate who owns a tile shop. Another mate and his girlfriend painted for next to nothing. I owe favours left right and centre.

We didn't hire a crane to stand the trusses, we used the winch on the Landcrusier when it was needed. Otherwise, having a 6'3" chippy on site was helpful. We hired a concrete pump for the slabs. Probably could have done without that.

Stuff ups included a strip footing in the wrong place, not enough piers under the infill slab. We fixed those things and moved on. Cost time, not money. Rain held us up for a couple of weeks. I spent several hours one weekend pumping out footings and cleaning out the mud. The foreman fell off a ladder and broke his arm, putting him out of action for a couple of weeks. The chippy we hired didn't get on with the foreman or my Dad. He walked off site once but came back because he needed the money.

The job took from September last year to end of June this year. I took some annual leave to help put the roof on. Otherwise, I spent every afternoon and every weekend at the site doing whatever needed to be done, from cleaning up rubbish to framing, hanging doors and installing architraves. It is still going on. I finished off a deck on Monday and I have heaps of work to go to finish the verandahs. The outside has to be painted, there are steps to put in. Various things inside like hanging shelves, installing wardrobes.

What we built is a dual occupancy with 3 beds on one side and 4 beds on the other. Basically two houses - about 50 squares all up. We went absolutely basic: weatherboard, gyprock, aluminium windows, tiles/carpet (no timber floors), basic fittings. We went for Duragal under the verandahs and decks (fire regulations). Half the house and the garage is on infill slab, half on bearers and joists. We used LVL for those. The flooring is termite treated chipboard and the frame is termite treated pine. Roof is colourbond, cladding is Hardies Primeline. All flame resistant or flame proof.

It included one full kitchen and three bathrooms. The other kitchen was an old one a mate who owns a kitchen joinery gave me. I'm planning to make one to replace it one day.

At the end of the day, I THINK we saved money. We spent $650,000 all up. 200,000 for the block, 20,000 for the shed, the rest on the house, say 400,000 for two houses by the time you allow for agent and legal fees ect. on the sale of the old house etc. I bet none of the builders around here could have done it for less than 500.

It's character building and a very good test of a marriage

Thankyou everyone. I appreciate all your responses and comments

Originally Posted by journeyman Mick

Art,
I think you're underestimating how much is involved in building a house.
Are you employed at the moment? Assuming that it will take you 18 months to build your house rather than 6 months for a builder (this is being optimistic for the OB and pessimistic for the builder) Do you think that the cost of having your house built by a pro will be greater than:

Your income for 18 months + rental accomodation for 12 months + interest on loan for 12 months + insurances for 12 months + (cost of tools and equipment - 20% realised on sale after use) + site toilet rental and service for 18 months + casual labour hire + wrokcover for labourer + cost of mobile phone usage to run job from site + cost of extra home phone usage + purchase of fax machine + scaffolding hire + jobsite barrier hire/purchase + hire of specialised equipment etc etc etc.

Mick,

Again, as always, I really appreciate your considered response.

A lot of what you mention can be somewhat downgraded in cost in my circumstances.

I'm not planning on leaving my job(lots of annual leave built up, and lots of weekends and late afternoons). I get bored when I sit around anyway. Who needs weekends lying on the beach anyway…ha ha. I don't really rate my labour as part of the equation, simply because the hours I will be spending on the job I would not have been working anyway. I suppose even if I did count them, I would look at the cost saving at the end and relate that to how many hours I worked to come up with a figure. Assuming I haven't overcapitalised, 50,000 saved(technically $50,000 equity) on the building job over 18 months equals the equivalent of 33,300 tax free, or approximately an extra 45000-50000 income per year.

Interest on loan. This is irrelevant, and I'll explain why. I'll throw in a few dollar numbers as examples. I'll leave progress payments out for sake of ease of understanding.

Option A: I have a home built by a builder and I move in after 6 months. I'm paying the full interest repayments after 6 months(lets say 500 per week). After 12 months, and 18 months…I'm still paying the same repayments as at 6 months(i.e 500). I pay rent up until 6 months(200 per week).
Option B. Assuming that costs are equal to Option A at the end of the building process(they'll hopefully be less…that’s why I am owner building), if it takes me 18 months to build, and I move in after 12(lockup), I'm paying less interest than option A at 6 months(say 1/3- $166), less interest in 12 months(2/3- $333), and the same after 18 months(500 per week)(completion). I will be paying rent for 12 months(200 per week).

The point is, and it's a common misconception, is that I am NOT paying any more interest when I owner build if the costs are the same. At no point in the process am I paying more than I would be if I had a builder build. The ONLY difference is that I have to pay rent and interest for a longer period of time when I owner build(see my next point).

Rental accom only needs to be paid to get to lockup(we can move in not long after that point(although it may be challenging for the mrs), so I would argue that should only take a few months longer to get to that stage that it would take a builder to get a house fully completed). Even if it take a fair bit longer, you can rent a liveable 1 bedder unit for 100 bucks a week where I live. So an extra year is only 5200.

Insurance…agreed, extra cost.

Tools and Equipment..agreed, extra cost

site toilet rental and service for 18 months. ( still not sure if necessary as owner builder..will check)

casual labour hire and workcover. Lots of friends in the trades and many cartons of beer(at the end of the day of course). There's only certain tasks that "require" multiple people. Some labour will be required, but I plan on stretching a few friendships and owing a lot of favours.

mobile phone + home phone usage + fax. Honestly, those costs are negligible in the scale of things.

scaffolding hire + jobsite barrier. I'm lucky enough personally to know a guy who owns a scaffolding company, so should not have any issues there. There'll be a cost, but I'm not going to be paying a lot for it.

specialised equipment. agreed.

I'm not arguing with you at all Mick, and your points are all valid, and I very much appreciate you opinions. But as you can see my circumstances really do negate a lot of these costs.

So I have to ask myself. On a house that costs $400,000 to build, and 50% is labour. Do the above costs constitute even close to $200,000. And the short answer is from my preliminary investigation is, NO.

This is of course just my 2 cents. I most probably won't go ahead, as the learning curve is probably too steep, but this is proving to be a good owner builder thread I think, and I'd like to see others adding their experience.

site toilet rental and service for 18 months. ( still not sure if necessary as owner builder..will check)

Technically, yes. It was one of the requirements in the approval from the council, nothing to do with being an owner builder. However, I built a shed first and put a toilet in it, then had the septic comissioned so we could use it, so realistically, we only needed to hire the loo for a few weeks. The shed was also the tea room and lock up for tools and materials.

Thanks for the info Silent C. My council is one of the more difficult ones I hear, so I would assume if any councils require it, this one would.

I was also nice to hear about your owner builder project. Did you think it was worth it? The impression I get from you previous post was that it was.

Did you think it was worth it?

Most definately. Builders here usually quote between $10,000 and $14,000 per square. So we were looking at between $500,000 and $700,000 to build. We simply could not have done it any other way.

I actually enjoyed the process (and still do because it hasn't finished yet). There were a few hitches, a few heated arguments, mostly between relations who like to stir each other up a bit. My wife was smart enough to stay well out of it, so there wasn't much tension between us.

We stayed in our rented accomodation (was actually our house, which we sold and rented back from the new owners while we built) until the insides were 95% complete. I had to hang a few doors, fit towel rails etc. but otherwise the place was ready to live in when we moved in. It cost us a bit more in rent but was probably worth the reduction in stress. We have two young kids so that was a factor.

I would do it again. I doubt I ever will though because we like this place and plan to stay for the long haul.

I reckon the Pambula prawns are the main reason keeping you there

We do have some nice prawns

We moved to Pambula Beach when I was a kid. Thorpdale and Mirboo North before that, not far from you.

Art,
I've seen a lot of people run into trouble as owner builders, and I've also seen some success. SilentC has the advantage of having some trade skills and family members in the trade. My examp0le of standing trusses was probably extreme, but illustrates what might happen. Also, 99% of trusses up here are hardwood and heavy as hell (cyclone tie down considerations), whereas apparently lots (most) trusses down south are pine. Lighter, not so splintery and infinitely easier to handle. As part of your research I'd suggest you get yourself the "Australian Owner Builder's Manual" by Allan Staines (reportedly the brother of the notorious Seaman Staines :eek: ) Read it cover to cover until you uinderstand all the technical terms and the processes involved. It will give you some insight, not nearly as much as working in the trade, but it's a start.

You'll find that there's lots of tasks that go more than twice as fast when done by two. I'd guess that two men working well together would get 3 times as much done than 1 by himself. I managed to build my shed solo, standing the walls ( some had to be lifted onto a 1M high block retaining wall) and even getting 2 x 10M long 150 C purlins 3 metres up onto the walls. Lifting the purlins up would have taken perhaps 1/4 of the time if I had someone to help me. It is possible, but it's bloody slow.

Mick