Thread: Electrics & Plumbing - What Am I Allowed To Do?

Originally Posted by silentC

Now you just go back and read what I wrote. Bet you can't find anywhere that I actually advised anyone that they should go ahead and break the law.. .

Nor have I directly advised anyone to break the law. But I've certainly hinted of it sure..... in exactly the same way you did when you mentioned jaywalking.............same thing.....don't remember exactly.....but you said something like.........'shyt yer I jaywalk'

Just like you, I couldn't give a rats ???? how you cross the road. The point I'm making is.........The laws position is irrelivent. Whats really important is you looked for bloody cars before you crossed.

The laws position is irrelivent (can't spell that) on electrical and plumbing work as well, because its just not enforced enough to make a difference.

Everybody knows that you won't get in strife with the law if you do it yourself. You can buy all you need to do most repair work yourself from freekin mitre 10 for christ sake. You know doubt can find step by step instructions over the internet on how to do it even. I'm not going to change a thing by reveling my thoughts on the matter here.

How are you going to stop people doing it anyway ?......by saying ' you can't do that. Its illegal'

Whilst some go -> ' oh ????, I better not do that then ! . god what would the neighbors think.. ' .......

I would say the vast majority have a bit of think about it........shake their heads and think .....' what a load of bullshyt'....and go ahead and do what they feel they can do anyway.

I've always had a problem solving sort of mind. I have a relatively low salary, and with the incredible cost of tradesman(sorry fellas, but its true. your a rip off, and some of you do worse a job than I would).....no law enforcement, easy access to parts.. there's just no way in the world I won't attempt what I can. And clearly I'm not alone.

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I've always had a problem solving sort of mind. I have a relatively low salary, and with the incredible cost of tradesman(sorry fellas, but its true. your a rip off, and some of you do worse a job than I would).....no law enforcement, easy access to parts.. there's just no way in the world I won't attempt what I can. And clearly I'm not alone.




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yet as we see in this thread quite clearly, some people who do their own work don't have much of an idea what they are doing at all. And are causing dangerous situations because they won't admit it or don't know how wrong they are.

As of today I have decided that no longer will I accept that home owners will do their own liscenced work, regardless of safety, code conformance and general laws in this country. If I see it i will report it- I see it all the time- and it's just dawned on me that theese things are endangering my life everytime I have to do work at one of these houses.

Between post number 176 and post number 181 I have been able to go and find relevant upto date information on electrical installations and the mens system, as i said before I'm not a sparky. I am however a tradesman this tells me a few things. As a trades man....
I know if something doesn't sound right
I know how to interpret standards a regs
I know where to go and who to ask about subjects involving current requirements.
I don't just go and pigheadedly do something because i think it's ok.

I have enough respect for the lives of others not to break the law.

Your post MR apricotripper has basically cemented my resolve for what i must do. Everytime I do a job, I submitt a COC form.
On that COC form is a section for Faults found, Everytime I do a job where i think the home owner has done some DIY work I'll write it in that section and send it off noting all possible infringments in that service. That way it will be noted and must be signed off by a liscenced trade.

When a fault is noted on a COC that fault goes on to public record, when you try to sell your house it will be noted in the incumberances section of What we call a form 1 here in S.A. ( notes boundarys, problems, easements and incumberances) The new owner will have to have all incumberances fixed within 12 moths from date of purchase, or not buy your house.

That way you DIY maniacs can kill youselves, your wives, your kids, your mother in law.. but no one else has to be messed around by your dodgy unsafe practices.

Think it's time for a collective spanking from all the tradies out there who worked hard long and for no money to be good at their job.

Obviously if you think you can do it to a standard thats better than a tradie then do it i won't be able to tell the diffence coz i won't look anyway coz im counting my money.
Because i have to pay my petrol, insurance, workcover, income protection, liscence fees, material suppliers, cover people who don't pay, by materials for the next jobs, get the van serviced, replace tools, pay for the pex Gas training, pay master plumbers association, spend and hour and a half at night doing paperwork, keep ahead of gov regs for small business.

At the end of the day I make about $1000 a week before tax and im almost always owed money. If i do a bathroom reno for $15,000 and some cheesy nob decides not to pay me, i dont make two bucks to rub together for that quarter.
$1000 bucks a week, pay tax lump sum every three months, no sickies, holidays, super, redundancy, etc,etc..... get the picture.

Dear gentle reader,

Why have I been so cocky in challenging mick101 (and tas_dean) over the scenario proposed? Because I know they can't explain it because it cannot happen without another fault being present at the same time. As much as they can claim that I don't, or couldn't, understand - I do. It is they who can't explain what is happening.

It is interesting to see that they have left it to a plumber to try and explain - what a joke. (no offence Bricks, but this really isn't your playing field).

Let me explain what they can not.

Firstly, they are talking about a failure of the "neutral" but what they are trying to say is a neutral-earth bond failure. Have you noticed in older switchboards have a "neutral bar" and at one point (and one point only) the neutral is bonded to the earth (have a look next time you are near an older switchboard). This is the multiple earthed neutral (MEN) system we use in Australia. The neutral is connected to earth at each household or installation.

As part of the system, the plumbing is also bonded to the neutral. Why, because due to resistance in the neutral wiring, it is possible to develop a small potential difference between neutral and earth. This small differece can lead to unpleasant tingles if, for example, you were to touch the (earthed) body of a washing machine (connected to neutral via the electrical earth) and also touch a tap (connected to earth via the plumbing). Note, these are small potentials, a few volts - a bit like the 9V battery on the tip of your tongue - not 240V.

So, if you get tingling when touching your washing machine and a tap, it is sign that there may be a fault with the eath neutral bonding and it ought to be checked.

With the "tooth brush" scenario with a "neutral" fault- the worst that could happen is using an earthed (class 1) tooth brush, the child might experience tingling while using the earthed tooth brush while holding there hand on the tap, or under the flowing water. I have never seen a class 1 (i.e. earthed) tooth brush in my life! The tingling, in this case, while unpleasent, would not be fatal.

The only plug-in tooth brushes I've seen have been class 2 - double insulated - i.e. no earth. The tingling would not happen as there is no earth (via the tap) to neutral (via the protective earth) path. With a doulde insulated appliance, it doesn't really matter what fault happens inside the tool, there is no connection with either the active, neutral (or earth) to the outside of the appliance. Tingling might happen between the floor (assuming bare feet, wet floor, conductive floor) and the tap - again this would be unpleasant rather than fatal.

This is why mick101 can not explain how "you can find your kid dead beside the bathroom sink with the bloody toothbrush still in their hand" because of a neutral problem. It can't happen without another problem being present at the same time.

BTW Bricks you have no idea who I am, so don't be too quick to judge. I'm more than happy to explain my reasoning and logic and put it on display for public comment. All I was doing was asking mick101 to do the same.

Originally Posted by bricks

..... get the picture.

yep. your going to stop being so efen nieve expecting to get results by saying ........' its illegal '......... and your going to attempt something thats probably not going to change a thing in the long run . Your wasting your time. But good luck ! I like it when people do what they believe in.

It doesn't matter what you do , your not going to make a difference are you whilst the law isn't properally enforced (its probably unrealistic to expect it to be) AND you can buy the parts.

but , all the best........

Quoting Bricks: "As of today I have decided that no longer will I accept that home owners will do their own liscenced work, regardless of safety, code conformance and general laws in this country. If I see it i will report it- I see it all the time- and it's just dawned on me that theese things are endangering my life everytime I have to do work at one of these houses."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Counting on a lot of repeat customers are we? I would have thought a quiet word in the ear would be best, along with a recommendation. I hope you own your own business, because if I were your employer I might be tempted to have a quiet word in your ear.

Originally Posted by chrisp

Dear gentle reader,

Why have I been so cocky in challenging mick101 (and tas_dean) over the scenario proposed? Because I know they can't explain it because it cannot happen without another fault being present at the same time. As much as they can claim that I don't, or couldn't, understand - I do. It is they who can't explain what is happening.

It is interesting to see that they have left it to a plumber to try and explain - what a joke. (no offence Bricks, but this really isn't your playing field).

Let me explain what they can not.

Firstly, they are talking about a failure of the "neutral" but what they are trying to say is a neutral-earth bond failure. Have you noticed in older switchboards have a "neutral bar" and at one point (and one point only) the neutral is bonded to the earth (have a look next time you are near an older switchboard). This is the multiple earthed neutral (MEN) system we use in Australia. The neutral is connected to earth at each household or installation.

As part of the system, the plumbing is also bonded to the neutral. Why, because due to resistance in the neutral wiring, it is possible to develop a small potential difference between neutral and earth. This small differece can lead to unpleasant tingles if, for example, you were to touch the (earthed) body of a washing machine (connected to neutral via the electrical earth) and also touch a tap (connected to earth via the plumbing). Note, these are small potentials, a few volts - a bit like the 9V battery on the tip of your tongue - not 240V.

So, if you get tingling when touching your washing machine and a tap, it is sign that there may be a fault with the eath neutral bonding and it ought to be checked.

With the "tooth brush" scenario with a "neutral" fault- the worst that could happen is using an earthed (class 1) tooth brush, the child might experience tingling while using the earthed tooth brush while holding there hand on the tap, or under the flowing water. I have never seen a class 1 (i.e. earthed) tooth brush in my life! The tingling, in this case, while unpleasent, would not be fatal.

The only plug-in tooth brushes I've seen have been class 2 - double insulated - i.e. no earth. The tingling would not happen as there is no earth (via the tap) to neutral (via the protective earth) path. With a doulde insulated appliance, it doesn't really matter what fault happens inside the tool, there is no connection with either the active, neutral (or earth) to the outside of the appliance. Tingling might happen between the floor (assuming bare feet, wet floor, conductive floor) and the tap - again this would be unpleasant rather than fatal.

This is why mick101 can not explain how "you can find your kid dead beside the bathroom sink with the bloody toothbrush still in their hand" because of a neutral problem. It can't happen without another problem being present at the same time.

BTW Bricks you have no idea who I am, so don't be too quick to judge. I'm more than happy to explain my reasoning and logic and put it on display for public comment. All I was doing was asking mick101 to do the same.

I'll back the opposing point of view - forget the toothbrush, a neutral fault condition can cause a fatality in the absence of 'another problem being present at the same time'.

I'd also ease up on Bricks - he's demonstrated that he can find, interpret and apply regulations in an area he's had no formal training in - something I'd like to see in everyone who is seeking to undertake their own electrical work. This would result in less people being burnt to a chrisp.

Since you've put it out there, who are you? (this is fun isn't it?) Me? well I'm degree qualified and I have a current electrical licence. I've worked in three states, one territory and overseas. My old man was a sparky and I've been in and around the game for over thirty years (24 in my own right).

Originally Posted by Cauterise

I'll back the opposing point of view - forget the toothbrush, a neutral fault condition can cause a fatality in the absence of 'another problem being present at the same time'.

Back them all you like - but explain to us why you are backing them.

Mick101 put up a scenario - he chose the tooth brush example and claimed with a neutral fault "you can find your kid dead beside the bathroom sink with the bloody toothbrush still in their hand".

If we need to "forget to toothbrush" to come up with a plausible scenario, then please explain.

All I'm asking is mick101 to back his claim by explaining how it happens, how the potentials are developed and the approximate level; and what the current path is.

I'm quite well qualified in these matters, but I don't need to hide behind my qualifications and make remarks something like "you won't understand". I'm happy to put my reasoning in my posts, if you agree with Mick101, then why don't you explain what might happen in the "toothbrush" scenario - or are you introducing another scenario where are fatality might occur?

thatirwinfella has come closest to a reasonable explanation to the scenario, but we have to assume quite a few "ifs" if we are to make a fatal current path and I question the level of the potential between the tap and an earthed toothbrush (ever seen one?) is enough to cause a fatality without another fault being present.

Redo the scenario with a (much, much more likely) double insulated toothbrush and it is an extremely remote possibility, one that is right up there with the probability of being abducted by aliens.

Perhaps you should read a previous thread.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ad.php?t=14723

In this instance, reading between the lines, seems to me that you are a very balanced individual - ie you have a chip on each shoulder. You seem determined to argue your point to a standstill, possibly because you don't have a licence, have no prospect of getting one, can't legally wire anything and want to test your theoretical knowledge against that of people who have a licence, have experience and know what they're doing. If I were you I'd stick to sitting behind the computer, or whatever it is that you do and leave the nuts and bolts to others more capable than yourself.

Hi

This has and continues to be an interesting thread

Discussions are now getting a little out of hand - aproaching the "name calling" level. I (and I hope others) would like to see the ettiquette and manners remain positive - please

As of today I have decided that no longer will I accept that home owners will do their own liscenced work, regardless of safety, code conformance and general laws in this country. If I see it i will report it- I see it all the time- and it's just dawned on me that theese things are endangering my life everytime I have to do work at one of these houses.

Ok, but how will you know that the work was NOT done by a tradie? I have seen very rough jobs performed by a number of various trades, including electrical AND plumbing trades. I have not considered them to be "tradesmen".

I don't know if the regualtions have changed, but many years ago it was ok for a plumber to do gasfitting, but a gasfitter could not do plumbing? So it was safe for a plumber to have a leaking pipe and "drown" people with a VISIBLE substance, but it was not ok for a gasfitter, responsible for the prevention of the "leak" of a NON visible substance, to work with water.

As a trades man....
I know if something doesn't sound right
I know how to interpret standards a regs
I know where to go and who to ask about subjects involving current requirements.
I don't just go and pigheadedly do something because i think it's ok.

I don't think anyone here is advocating "pigheadedness" in performing electrical (or other) work.

In many (all?) of my posts in this thread I have stated that *IF* the DIY'er is comfortable with and knows what they are doing then they can do it them selves.

If they DON'T know what they are doing then I would expect them NOT to do it! There is no harm in asking what to do and / or HOW to do it. If ACCURATE advise is given and adhered to then there is still nothing wrong (other than it being illegal) for a COMPETENT DIYer from doing their own work.

The original poster (see what you started ) asked "what am I allowed to do" ok, we have resolved that the answer is nothing! So what.

A compentent DIYer, especially one from the UK where they (generally) KNOW from experience what they are doing, can/could STILL do the work - their choice.

I have enough respect for the lives of others not to break the law.

I have enough respect for MY OWN life as well as the lives of others, that's why MY work, legal or not is equal to or BETTER than that of the tradesman whose job I am doing.

I would like to think (hope) that other DIYers on this forum do the same.

Your post MR apricotripper has basically cemented my resolve for what i must do. Everytime I do a job, I submitt a COC form.
On that COC form is a section for Faults found, Everytime I do a job where i think the home owner has done some DIY work I'll write it in that section and send it off noting all possible infringments in that service. That way it will be noted and must be signed off by a liscenced trade.

When a fault is noted on a COC that fault goes on to public record, when you try to sell your house it will be noted in the incumberances section of What we call a form 1 here in S.A. ( notes boundarys, problems, easements and incumberances) The new owner will have to have all incumberances fixed within 12 moths from date of purchase, or not buy your house.

So you could just very well corrupt the sale of a property for the poor quality work of an unknown tradesman!

That way you DIY maniacs can kill youselves, your wives, your kids, your mother in law.. but no one else has to be messed around by your dodgy unsafe practices.

Who is to say that we are DIY *maniacs*? Members of this board are sensible enough to be either capable of DOING the job or having enough sense to have the job done by a professional.

Think it's time for a collective spanking from all the tradies out there who worked hard long and for no money to be good at their job.

I think the reverse is true, it is time for the tradies to be spanked by TOO MANY mislead, misquoted ($), overcharged, missed appointment, never turned up, botched job, poor quality, ripped off (YES! RIPPED OFF) consumers.

The rates charged by trademen now (with a building boom) are excessive. Why? because they KNOW they can get it! Sure it's supply and demand - but they sure do cry poor when the circumstances are reversed.

I know of an instance where a $2000 rendering job was quoted at $5000. Another quote was sourced. The second quote was about the same but the "quoter" could not start in the required time frame. On approaching the person that provided the original quote to do the job, he NOW quoted an extra $1000 basically because he could!

Tradesmen should also have a MORAL standard.

Originally Posted by Cauterise

Perhaps you should read a previous thread.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ad.php?t=14723

In this instance, reading between the lines, seems to me that you are a very balanced individual - ie you have a chip on each shoulder. You seem determined to argue your point to a standstill, possibly because you don't have a licence, have no prospect of getting one, can't legally wire anything and want to test your theoretical knowledge against that of people who have a licence, have experience and know what they're doing. If I were you I'd stick to sitting behind the computer, or whatever it is that you do and leave the nuts and bolts to others more capable than yourself.

Perhaps you should ease up on the ridicule and explain what it is you are talking about. You two guys just avoid the technical question and sling mud.

Again you are not playing the ball.

BTW chrisp is an electrical engineer. If you want to debate then do so. It seems to me that it is the last thing you want to do.
Go on, answer the question with your technical expertise without reference to Journeyman Mick's thread. I am seriously interested in the answer.

While you are at it, why don't you also answer my previous post genius.

Originally Posted by bricks

$1000 bucks a week, pay tax lump sum every three months, no sickies, holidays, super, redundancy, etc,etc..... get the picture.

Just re-read your post .......and I dont give a shyt ! .... you know why......cause I only make $550 a week, and no doubt I'd work as hard, if not more than you (and yes, I know your a builder). I work in a joinery, and I'm ????ed at the end of the day. Hands ache from shifting timber all day. cuts and splinters .......its just horrible bricks. Just horrible

So, bricks , your just winging to me.

Maybe you just need to get laid. a loving lady. Works for me. After a bit of nouke, alls good. Have to be better than a tooth brush.

I can understand you've got frustrations in life......but you must know that we've all got them.

So what are the odds do you think of being killed or injured , everytime you turn up at a job, from previous dodgy work ?........do you really know ?

And your chances, isn't described by just quoting how many people died during a certain period. Population is very important I'd say in statistics isn't it ? Convientiently it seems to be always discounted to make a situation look worse .

Wouldn't be surprised there's overconcern on it all anyway when somebody really finds out the true odds......(that you've probably got more chance of dying from jaywalking afterall....eh Silent (could be your next signature....jaywalking hippocryt (can't spell that)...that be funny. Would you do it just for me for a laugh.. go on )

Originally Posted by boban

Yes, but you know I was talking about single phase and was making a point about what could be discussed and further that education was the key. It was merely an example I used to make a point. That view however might not be as convenient to your criticism however.

And just as you like being smart, is the blue phase (a bright blue) found in the company of the brown active, or is it found in the company of the white and red phases.

I think you have proved my point about people just waiting for something to jump on.

I think you should play the ball. Not that I even understand what you mean by that food chain statement.

Having read the balance of your post, it appears that we are in agreement about getting the correct information. As I've said before and you've repeated, its readily available from Standards Australia.

The funny thing is, I don't even need to do my own electrical nor do I have to pay for having someone do it.

I don't know why I even bother posting on this forum. Perhaps I'm being a big girl, but someone should just ban me and put me out of my misery. See ya.

Hey Boban, welcome back - missed your incisive views on stuff. Thought you'd thrown in the towel and left the forum - hence didn't reply.

Seems you missed a bit while you were gone, thanks for pointing out that Chrisp has a degree - As I stated, I've got one of those too. They come in handy occasionally. Don't mean squat though if you can't back it up. Fortunately, mine is of the type that Chrisp's isn't - namely, one that gives me the right to wire my own house.

As for my reply to your earlier post (see above):

I liked your bit about "bright blue", but if this is all you've got, then you're extremely lucky that you have no need to wire anything or pay anyone to wire anything on your behalf (live in a vacuum do you?)

As for knowing you were talking about single phase - no, I thought we were talking about residential/domestic installations and what you can do legally - just as many three phase out there these days. Incidentally, I raised your bit about blue neutrals as a means of trying to educate people to think about what they are doing - read the rest of my post.

As for the answer about neutrals - seems like I have to spell it out - a line side neutral fault will produce the condition in the example. Broken neutral definitely, reverse polarity probably, but likely to be detected before coming to that.

As for my crack about the food chain - sorry mate, but basically I meant that I believe there are smarter Krill out there. Wikipedia probably contains a good explanation of what Krill is.

Hey boys, just like to start by saying that i don't like being moderated , it makes the threads look messy, perhaps we could just take it back a notch and continue a disscussion.

Id just like to point out a problem with the toothbrush theory which nobody has bought to the disscussion yet.

The toothbrush is irrelevant.

Fatal current can be received simply from the tapware and pipework in a house by itself. eg taps to ground. You don't need to touch a power socket to be killed by an earth fault. An example of this is here
http://www.technicalregulator.sa.gov...RR07_Apr01.pdf
on page nine in green box

Another warning is herehttp://www.technicalregulator.sa.gov...RR15_Apr05.pdf
on page 7

Why is it that even reletivly low voltage or what ever can kill you, its because we worker bees wear rubber soled safety boots. Theese boots provide a resistance of electricity finding ground through your feet. this means that you can cut a pipe, touch both ends, and compleate the circuit. If this happens the RCD won't trip because you havnt earthed the problem you've just become a part of the circuit.

Regardless of what anyone thinks about DIY wiring and plumbing the fact is you can be killed from your taps only, with the mens system installed you can get earth problems from too much resistance in the line, and a switch that doesnt work could be an indicator of an earth problem in the mens system.

Stating my position- I don't care if homeowners do there own work
I do care if unliscenced people carry out work for others- mates or customers
I really do care if home owners don't know what they are doing and make something dangerous.

Originally Posted by Honorary Bloke

Close this thread up now.

OK.

Some of the post are getting a little bit too personal and vindictive.