Thread: Electrics & Plumbing - What Am I Allowed To Do?

How do I sharpen plane blades

Originally Posted by Yonnee

Psshhhhhtt!! *Takes sip, pulls up chair*
"Any pizza left?"

Here's a thought. Years ago, when doing a course for the C.T.I.A (Caravan Trades Industries Association) Roadworthy scheme, we were told that 'technically', anyone can work-on/repair an appliance. If it can be unplugged from the wall, it's an appliance. (If it's hardwired in, like your oven, you can't touch it!) Therefore, 'technically' a caravan is an appliance, even though there are usually hardwired power points run throughout the van's interior.

Correct regarding appliances, incorrect regarding caravans. Electrical wiring for relocatable premises (including caravans and tents) carries it's own standards - AS3001:2001. Must be done by a licensed electrician and a certificate of compliance must be attached to the relocatable premises. Caravan parks can refuse to supply a power connection without the certificate, and registration can be refused without the certificate also.

The standard covers things including compulsory double pole switching (very expensive to buy double pole switched powerpoints), compulsory RCD/ELCB, cable types and support systems.

Ahhh, going into overtime I see.

Originally Posted by dazzler

How do I sharpen plane blades

Normally towed behind a ute on a bit of wire over a gravel road... touch up the secondary bevel with a high voltage arc (use the same bit of wire if you are mean). I can't believe this thread - pizza gone; beer gone; still it runs....

Originally Posted by wonderplumb

$200 a week for a 1st year apprentice is the harsh reality of it, always has been and if your 16, living at home with mum and dad paying the bills, doing your washing, wiping your backside still then why not do a trade? I believe it comes down to a lack of willingness to do a bit of hard work combined with the lure of big dollars in administrative and IT work that shies kids away from doing trades these days.

.

Most kids at 16 or whatever are paid poorly anyway. ...struggling uni students etc.....they all winge..understandably or not.. There was a kid at the place I work that wasn't even given an apprenticeship and he's being paid something like
$7/hour.

Everybody looks for reason to justify being paid more no matter what your paid.

I always read these threads with interest, but never normally post. But hey, time for a change.
I am a licensed aircraft electrician. I am more that comfortable with wiring, bonding tests, insulation tests, continuity tests (+ have access to the test equipment to do them), crimping, the principles of electron flow versus conventional flow. I know what capacitors, resistors, thermal trip C.Bs and fuses do. I am not ashamed to admit that I have replaced a fan, fitted a new GPO, and removed and refitted more than a few light switches, as well a couple of downlights in my house, and would do it again as required. I would never even consider going near the switchboard though. I draw a firm line there.

Now, I think that there should be some mechanism for me to go to my local TAFE, and learn and be examined on the details required to pick up a licence to do simple electrical work on my own house. But alas I have no choice but to leave my job to do a 4 year apprenticeship.
This is nothing but protectionist nonsense. I agree that there are people who shouldn't be allowed to even turn on a light switch, let alone change one, but I also think that there has to be some room for common sense, hence the need to be examined, both written and practically if necessary, to pick up the restricted licence. It's all very well saying "get a sparky" at everything, but this isn't always as easy as it sounds. A lack of qualified guys leads to people not turning up to quote (happened to me on more than 1 occasion) and when they do, pushing the price up as it's only a small job.

I agree with SilentC to a certain extent when he says that we should not be encouraging people to break the law, and I wouldn't actively encourage anyone to do so, but I also think that a lot of these people are going to do it anyway, and if I'm going to unwittingly buy a house off 1 of them one day, I'd hope that at least they had been given some good advice before they caried out their illegal wiring. At the end of the day I'd sleep better at night if someone asked me how to wire up a new light and I told him he souldn't do it, but if he was to, he should do it like this. I definately would have a few sleepless nights if I told him he shouldn't be doing it and walked away to find that he did it anyway and killed his family while they slept.

Saying that a licensed sparky has to come back and fix up his earier substandard work is also a moot point in my opinion. Firstly, it shouldn't be substandard. That's why you paid through the nose to get it done. Secondly, how would I know it was not up to scratch if I'm not allowed to ask how things should be done and learn a bit about the regs and requirements? Having done a fair bit of renovation on my house so far, I have to say that I am surprised at the standard of some things when it comes to building a house. Aircraft wiring is loomed carefully, with stand-offs at well defined distances. My house wiring, put in by a "professional" is laid all over my roof space in a very haphazard fashion. I even found one bit of GPO wiring that had been trapped between a metal plate and the roof truss, nearly cutting the insulation right through. This done, or at least inspected, buy a licensed electrician when the house was built 12 years ago.

To finish, I think that the electrocution stats are valid data, in that it doesn't really matter who they comprise of. All countries have home DIY'ers, professional electricians, electric company employees in cherry pickers, people in boats with big masts (well, maybe not ALL countries!) and kids that fly kites near substations. The simple fact is that as hard as the government thinks it is protecting the population from the perils of electricity, it doesn't seem to be working. But then again, why would the government, Liberal or Labour, want to take on the unions and possibly reduce the amount of cash that one of their groups make? They say electrical DIY is unsafe, so it must be true. They also said Iraq had WMD the petrol companies are in it for the consumers, and everybody would love WorkChoices..............

I think that there should be some mechanism for me to go to my local TAFE, and learn and be examined on the details required to pick up a licence to do simple electrical work on my own house.

I agree, but then who is going to inspect it? Bet you didn't know that a sparky needs an inspector's license to inspect his own work. The guy we used was working under another blokes license because he didn't have the qualifications to inspect his own work, so even though he's a fully qualified sparky of 40 years, he still needs someone else to OK it before the Country Energy guys would let him connect it.

I'd hope that at least they had been given some good advice before they carried out their illegal wiring

I'd prefer that it had been done by someone with a license whose asre I could kick if there was a problem. If I say to someone "get a sparky" (I'm not qualified to answer electrical questions anyway), rather than "hey, you shouldn't do it, but here's how some bloke you've never met who thinks he knows all about wiring and stuff reckons you should do it" then my conscience is clear. I mean to say, how does the DIYer that comes on to ask the question know that the person giving them advice knows what they are talking about? Could be the blind leading the blind. Yes, yes I know that applies to everything on here but it puts a bit of a hole in the argument that seeking and obtaining advice on an Internet forum at least assures that the illegal wiring job will be done right, doesn't it? Yes, I believe it does.

Saying that a licensed sparky has to come back and fix up his earier substandard work is also a moot point in my opinion.

See above! It's all about having a license number to refer to. They have to give you a certificate of compliance with their license number on it. If they do sub-standard work, or there is a problem with something they have done, you've a much better chance of getting it fixed if you have a formal paper trail, than if it was DIY Bob doing his own wiring.

I think that the electrocution stats are valid data, in that it doesn't really matter who they comprise of

Of course it matters. What does the number of people electrocuted whilst working on high voltage lines have to do with the safety or otherwise of wiring in people's houses? Nothing, that's what. I'm not saying that the stats don't support the argument that Australia has no better a safety record than the rest of the world. Maybe it doesn't. But I fail to see how looking at the stats for electrocutions in general proves anything. In any case, this argument only applies if you believe that the reason for having licensing laws has anything more than a minor connection to safety. I think it has more to do with regulating the industry, giving a clear onus of liability, and getting rid of dodgy backyarders.

Originally Posted by silentC

I agree, but then who is going to inspect it?

Thats my point for being examined. It shouldn't require further inspection. The aviation industry is one of, if not the most, regulated industries in Australia. I hold a licence allowing me to work on a $100m dollar aircraft, carrying 400 people 40,000ft in the air, and the privelages of my licence mean that I can certify my work as fit to fly. Having to hold an inspectors ticket to inspect a licensed electricians work is just another level of money generating. Why bother to licence the sparky if it all has to be examined anyway? May as well let anyone have a crack at wiring, and just make it the law that it has to be inspected for compliance.

Originally Posted by silentC

I mean to say, how does the DIYer that comes on to ask the question know that the person giving them advice knows what they are talking about? Could be the blind leading the blind. Yes, yes I know that applies to everything on here but it puts a bit of a hole in the argument that seeking and obtaining advice on an Internet forum at least assures that the illegal wiring job will be done right, doesn't it? Yes, I believe it does.

Not necessarily. If someone comes on here asking how to tell if a GPO is still live and I post that they should just touch the live and neutral conductors at the same time with the tip of a screwdriver to see, there would be a huge number of replies telling the OP not to do it! This is only possible because of the large number of people posting on these forums. If it were only viewed by a person every other day, I would completely agree with you.

Originally Posted by silentC

If they do sub-standard work

But they shouldn't be doing substandard work. That's why we're all told to employ a professional.....

Originally Posted by silentC

Of course it matters. What does the number of people electrocuted whilst working on high voltage lines have to do with the safety or otherwise of wiring in people's houses? Nothing, that's what.

I agree. But if you assume (and some of the safety argument is assumptions) that there is a reasonably proportional amount of people killed whilst working on high voltage transmission lines etc in developed countries with rigorous health and safety regimes, then what is left over is important. What I'm arguing is that basically in a given number of people, in the U.K to pick a country at random, say 20 % of electrocutions were high voltage transmission lines. It's not a huge jump to assume that therefore somewhere in the same region may be the number killed by the same cause in Oz. I know its not exact, but bear with me. The fact is that there are a lot more electrocution deaths in OZ than in other developed countries. Therefore, either our "professional" electrical workforce are really careless at their jobs and don't adhere to the rules, or a lot of DIY'ers are shocking themsleves because they are trying to do things that they shouldn't be, with no information. There will always be people who will either want to do things for themselves, either for financial reasons, or because they enjoy it. All I'm saying is allow them to be educated in a controlled way, instead of by word of mouth and advice from unqualified individuals. Unfortunately the government/unions/whoever doesn't want to allow that, so the informal advice is all that is left to try an maintain some level of safety.

It shouldn't require further inspection.

If you want to argue for a change to the system, then by all means do so (still waiting for someone to start the thread) but with the system such as it is, even a TAFE training course would be limited in what it qualified you to do, without you needing to have it inspected.

May as well let anyone have a crack at wiring, and just make it the law that it has to be inspected for compliance.

That is pretty much what the law says. Anyone can do the wiring, as long as they are under direct supervision of a licensed person. And all work must be tested by a person authorised to do so.

This is only possible because of the large number of people posting on these forums.

And witness how many different answers you get to any conceivable question. Ultimately the DIYer has to decide who is right and who is wrong. There's also the question of people giving advice when they are not on site. How to test that a plug is live? Yeah, sure you can probably explain to someone how to do that. But wiring questions like "I have four red wires, two black and two green, which ones do I hook my new light up to" - how can anyone give a reliable answer to that without being there?

Regarding stats, if you really want to examine it, you also need to look at house fires started by faulty wiring. You would need to know, of those, which wiring jobs were legal under the new system vs. those that weren't.

Therefore, either our "professional" electrical workforce are really careless at their jobs and don't adhere to the rules, or a lot of DIY'ers are shocking themsleves because they are trying to do things that they shouldn't be....

You should stop right there. That's right, doing things they shouldn't be. I'm not sure that I agree with the argument that the way to stop people doing silly things is to make it easier for them. It's a bit like injecting rooms in a way. They're going to do it anyway, so why not give them somewhere clean to do it. I wonder how many people have actually gotten off the drugs as a result. Maybe I'm wrong on that, not sure.

As I said, I don't necessarily agree with the safety argument. I don't know why the legislation was created, but I doubt that safety has all that much to do with it. As I said, I think it has more to do with industry regulation (controlling who is doing what on building sites), making sure there are backsides to kick when things go wrong, and cleaning up the dodgy stuff that was going on twenty years ago.

Hi

Does every one who changes his own brake pads mic. up their discs to see if they are within acceptible tolerances? Machine theyre discs/shoes if necessary? Check wheel bearings/tie-rod ends/balljoints while its jacked up? Know how to carry out these checks? Know how to read tyre wear for signs of underlying front-end problems? Know the correct tyre pressures to run on?

Yes BUT the discs only JUST fit in my lathe.

1. Yes it's a regulated industry, but so is selling real estate and operating taxis. So what.

2. You can get authorisation to wire your own residence/property (or residence you can prove you have an interest in) if you have a degree in electrical engineering. Whover siad you couldn't is mistaken. Make written application or go and apply personally.

3. In the absence of a contractor's licence, licensed electricians are only allowed to work on their own residence/property. Go figure - licensed, qualified electricians legally can't wire the neighbour's front light.

4. In some cases blue wires are not negative/neutral (ever heard of blue phase Boban?) you may not have broken the law by posting that, but if humans were still dependant on the food chain, you'd go hungry.

5. Apprenticeships are financial short term pain for long term gain. It costs time and money to train someone who can be literally useless for a year or two before becoming productive.

6. Whoever said don't touch the switchboard is spot on. Get a contractor in, get a shedload of protection on every circuit (ie ELCB/RCDs) and then you can knock yourself out (illegally of course) playing with your power circuits, your light circuits, whatever. No one will lose sleep over your dodgy wiring if there is sufficient protection tripping the circuit every time you sneeze.

7. People die from illegal or untested wiring. I can think of 2-3 cases off the top of my head. I also know a chippie/builder who now has fused vertebrae due to some reckless tosser's illegal, untested wiring. Read any of the regulatory authority periodicals and you'll find the instances of prosecutions, accidents etc.

8. Electricians aren't professionals, they are trades people. The electrical industry is regulated by bureacrats, it is not a self-governing industry. Take your anger out on the bureacrats. If you don't understand what I mean by this - do some research on the meaning of what are and what aren't professions. You might say semantics, but I think an important point if you are going to slag the electrical trade wholesale.

Long and the short of it is this - yes, anyone with a modicum of intelligence should be allowed to work on their own property as long as they wire it in accordance with appropriate standards and local regulations, test it and submit it for inspection by the regulatory authority.

If you are going to illegally wire something (ie unlicensed wiring, not shonky wiring), do yourself a favour, get a copy of the Australian Standard (will cost you $100 or so) and read up. Hands up if you buy books to help you get the most from your band saw, table saw, router, whatever. Hell, most of you probably even have a workshop manual for changing the brakes.

As for changing lights, power points etc., just make sure the terminals are done up tight, it isn't just a case of getting the wires round the right way, even a monkey can imitate, but get those terminals secure. My bet is that more electrical fires happen as a result of loose connections than anything else.

Use correct equipment (including connectors, tape, junction boxes, whatever). Know when a job is too much for you and steer clear. Don't guess, and most importantly test, test, test everyting and abide by the Wiring Rules even for 'illegal' work done outside the regulatory authority's oversight. Beg, buy or steal some test equipment. Prove dead and check thoroughly when done.

As for changing the system - if you want to do something, write to your local regulator and ask for a permit to wire your own house, when the obvious reply comes in, write to your local member and ask for a change. if enough people want change it will happen. But, in the mean time, self-select, recognise your limits.

I'd like one of you to be a test case, admit to having installed a power point, submit the paperwork on your own behalf and then test in the courts your right to do so in your own house.
Cheers.

Hi

Saying that a licensed sparky has to come back and fix up his earier substandard work is also a moot point in my opinion. Firstly, it shouldn't be substandard.

This IMHO is a substantial part of the problem, the lack of GOOD tradespeople!

For a slightly OT example, but along the same line, I had a painter paint our house inside and out. The quality was less than the previous paint job that *I* did. The painter came back THREE times to fix problems before I finally had to call in the Painters Registration Board. The painter STILL had to come back another TWO times to finally have the job passed by the PRB. I had TWO full pages of "faults". So how does a person that knows nothing about painting get the correct job done in the first place?

In another instance, I had a bricklayer come and repair a brick wall. This was a 45deg corner that had to be knocked down and rebuilt using the same bricks.

As I watched from the kitchen window, I could SEE at the third course that the wall was going HIGH at the corner. Approx 1cm in 2.5m.

I asked him "Couldn't he use a string line" the feeble excuse of it was too hard because of the corner meant the bricklayer was going to continue WITHOUT the string line.

After reaching half the height of the wall, it was more out of level than before!

I again brought this to the attention of the bricklayer. BTW my dad was a bricklayer (a TOP CLASS tradesman after a 5 YEAR bricklaying apprenticeship), so I am aware of quality bricklaying and have an exceptionally good eye for level The next day the bricklayer did concede a little and knocked off six courses to try again.

The nett result was abysmal In the length of three metres the wall rises 2.5cm - rediculous. The bricklayer STILL could NOT see the "error". I offered him the choice of FIXING the wall or getting paid HALF his quoted price he did NOT want to fix his work, so was paid half. I STILL see this wall every day from the kitchen window.

BTW the neighbour across the road recently had his wall rebuilt (different bricklayer). His wall drops nearly 5cm in 6 metres - THAT'S HALF A BRICK

...and some people here wonder WHY I do my own work?

At least *I* do it correctly and properly THE FIRST time. I KNOW I can trust my own work. I served an aprenticeship (Fitting & Maching), though far removed from the trades discussed here, but the training given IMHO was better in those days. Today's apprentices are not as well trained, as the quality of trades has diminished over the years and will continue to drop as the quality continues to diminish.

There ARE a few good tradesmen out there, I have come across a few of them and we have had similar discussions to that on which this thread is based. They agree with the sentiments expressed here that DIY is quite often BETTER than the quality received from tradespeople.

So I will continue to do my own quality work and recommend that those that CAN, also do the same. If you cannot to a task then by all means of course HIRE and PAY for a professional tradie, JUST be sure of who you get and that they ARE good at their trade.

Did it ever occur to you that, just as there are varying degrees of standards and abilities amongst tradesmen, there are also varying degrees of the same amongst DIYers? At least with the tradesman, you had a Painters Registration Board to call. Who are you going to call when your son or daughter's house catches on fire because of the dodgy job the previous owner did on the wiring?

You might be the solid gold, shyte hot workman that you say you are, I don't know, I've never seen your work. But that is not the point. The point is that a) you're suggesting that people break the law and b) confessing to doing it yourself, all the time, on a public forum for all to see. We all know your first name, what you drive, and where you live.

I saw a story on one of those current affairs programs the other night about young kids getting into trouble in chat rooms because they don't appreciate just how public their conversations are. No different here.

Originally Posted by Cauterise

2. You can get authorisation to wire your own residence/property (or residence you can prove you have an interest in) if you have a degree in electrical engineering. Whover siad you couldn't is mistaken. Make written application or go and apply personally.

Cauterise,

Great first post!

I agree with most of your points, but I would like to know more about your experiences with point 2.

My experience is that you can not get a license to wire your own even if you are an electrical engineer. In Victoria it is called an "occupier's license" but there quite a few catches in the application process. You need 80 hours supervised experience; you need a "supervised workers license" to get the experience, you need to sit the test to get the "supervised workers license", but you can not sit it unless you are apprenticed. Bottom line I was told by the OCEI was the only way was a 4 year apprenticeship .